[taylorfusion]

Hey friends,

Got a persistent, replicable issue with the lower right hand keys/octave for sure E, and pretty much all from D to F#.

As I play, from or to this area I get a gurgle, flutter type sound. Seems to happen on mf type dynamics or even lower. I can blow louder through it and not necessarily hear it but cannot get a reliable sealed tone in these notes and I've tried it with 3 different mouthpieces, same reed.

It's a 5 digit MK VI that I just got overhauled and the repairman needs another pass with it as he had pretty much "run out of tricks" to deal with it. He needs more time with it if it was still an issue (which I'm quite convinced it is).

Could the neck be the issue if the repairman thinks the keys/pads are set (new of course)? What else? Happens also as I play from G# down to E for example

It's an otherwise sweet horn I just purchased but don't want any concerns with a lower note not making it without a great deal of concentration.

thanks for any advice

 

[hornfixer]

Could the neck be the issue

It could be.
Did you check it to see if it leaks?

the repairman thinks the keys/pads are set

I think he should know, not think. (That's just what I think)

 

[taylorfusion]

It could be.
Did you check it to see if it leaks?

Oh yeah brought it back and he doesn't see any leaks. And needs more time with it. Just trying to get a range of ideas that might else be wrong.

 

[hornfixer]

Oh yeah brought it back and he doesn't see any leaks

You can't see leaks in the neck, you have to plug the body below the neck socket and blow test.

 

[southfloridahorns]

I'm not convinced that there isn't a pad leak. If A plays and G# doesn't, the G pad is the first place to look. On a Mark VI, like many saxes, the G key is held on by two pivot screws. If either end of the key wobbles even a little bit, the pad can leak as the key won't always go up and down the same way. Have the tech fit the key properly if there's any play at all.

Leaks can also happen anywhere two pieces of metal are soldered together. Not just in the neck, but also the neck receiver and body octave pip. Going down further, the two ends of the bow also, but that wouldn't make G# to E leak...

Keep us posted...

 

[JakeLampe]

It might be your bis key pad not going all the way down when the C key is pressed down (LH 2) so try pressing both the bis, and the B key pearl with your index finger when playing these notes. If that doesn't help next take a look at the pad just above the F key (RH 1) and use your 2nd and 3rd RH fingers to cover E+F while using your index to press down on this one.

Both of those have adjustment screws to get them lined up - the pads can be seated perfectly, but the adjustment can still be off slightly making it so that the linkage doesn't get them fully closed.

-jake

 

[hornfixer]

Any answer without looking at it is just speculation.
If there is another repair person in town, you might want to get an estimate on a Top Playing Condition.
Usually they will do this for free.

 

[taylorfusion]

yeah Jake both of these techniques felt like it started to address the issue but could still get the low E to blah-blah-blah flubber every couple of seconds or so. pressure with the air flow also helps generate the "leak"

 

[maddenma]

Drop a cork down the bell (your end plug will do). If it goes away, it's probably not a leak.

 

[saxetc]

Drop a cork down the bell (your end plug will do). If it goes away, it's probably not a leak.

The old low end "motorboating", "gurgle", "flutter" seems to be the main design flaw in the xx,xxx Mark VI's. maddenma described the easiest fix if there are no other problems (leaks). If a wine bottle cork doesn't fix it then there are other issues.

 

[simso]

the repairman thinks the keys/pads are set

I think he should know, not think. (That's just what I think)

I think your right.

 

[milandro]

if the horn didn’t have a gurgle in the first place ( and then has one now AFTER the overhaul) the gurgle is not because of a design flaw.

I agree the tech should know that the pads are set well, not “ think.” they are.

Of course the first thing that one should think (but who am I to say although others in this thread have said the same) when hearing a motorboating is a possible small leak of a key not closing the way it should when operating other keys (in other words a key that closes fine on its own but when you close other keys lower down it might become slightly open)

 

[taylorfusion]

I can't say it had a gurgle originally as when I had just bought it, there were a number of leaks (thus the overhaul). Let me try the cork trick next and advise.

The other thing was the tech thought the previous player was quite "acidic" as there was a lot of pitting on the (same serial) neck but that there was no major damage to it overall (i.e. pulled down). Finally, the silver ring around the top of the horn where the tenon fits has a weak solder joint but decided it wasn't worth the re-solder and that it wouldn't affect anything. Just wanted to include that as well in my observations.

 

[JayeLID]

Drop a cork down the bell (your end plug will do). If it goes away, it's probably not a leak.

I dunno if you are speaking specifically to this model horn, or just as a generality. If the former, I have nothing to add. But if the latter....I would disagree.

A cork down the bell can stop motorboating low notes even IF there still exists leak(s).....

if the horn didn't have a gurgle in the first place ( and then has one now AFTER the overhaul) the gurgle is not because of a design flaw.

Yup.....

Finally, the silver ring around the top of the horn where the tenon fits has a weak solder joint but decided it wasn't worth the re-solder and that it wouldn't affect anything. Just wanted to include that as well in my observations.

Wondering what your Tech's definition of an 'overhaul' is. In my book, an overhaul takes care of everything....

 

[averageschmoe]

Where do you live? Maybe we can refer you to somebody who has had some experience with professional saxophones.

 

[maddenma]

Dropping the cork or other ping-pong ball sized object doesn't completely rule out a leak, this is true. But if the pads are seated well and the bow-to-body-bell connections aren't leaking, then I'd suspect it's one of those horns that was built on a Friday afternoon. With these 5-digit VI's (serial number wasn't provided) they mucked around with the bow quite a bit. Short bow, long bow, something in the middle, and it's my understanding that it isn't uncommon to get some motorboating on low D, and sometimes on C & B, and different intonation irregularities on 5-digit VI's. It's why you'll sometimes find a glob of wax melted to the inside of the bow.

Doesn't make it a bad horn, just may need some wax adjustments to the bow.

Since the bow and bell aren't soldered, you could have a leak where the bow is attached to the body, and that's also a possibility, but it's going to need to be a pretty large leak there to cause this.

 

[hornfixer]

the silver ring around the top of the horn where the tenon fits has a weak solder joint but decided it wasn't worth the re-solder and that it wouldn't affect anything.

You sure he is a tech?
Some people just say they are.

 

[milandro]

 

[Raphyel]

does the neck tighten up snugly? I find that LOTS or horns have problems with the neck sealing at the tenon.

 

[taylorfusion]

does the neck tighten up snugly? I find that LOTS or horns have problems with the neck sealing at the tenon.

Yes he paid special attention to the fit and said it is where it needs to be. Note that he didn't feel the need to re-solder that silver ring at the top of the neck apparently has some kind of wear in there or something