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Distinguished SOTW Member
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Discussion Starter #1
I've had a #245k 12M for years and played it in sections with no intonation issues. I recently found a gold-plated #189k baritone. It's the greatest playing baritone I've ever blown on including Joe Temperley's horns. The problem is this; it plays sharp with my Link STM and really sharp with my Aaron Drake. No problem with the old Woodwind & Co "Harry Carney" model. This was not an issue with the #245k era Conn but with this older NWII, the horn can't be used with a band unless I hang the mouthpiece off the end of the neck. I actually have 2 necks. The original neck and one from a later 1960s era 12M which fits perfectly.

What would happen if I extended the newer neck to compensate for the pitch? Would that throw anything off? I mean, I realise that these horns were built to go with large chamber mouthpieces. It's not like I'm playing a Berg or some modern, high-baffle piece. Just a Link STM and Drake. The Drake is like a rubber Link with a medium chamber and roll-over baffle.

Anyone have experience with this?
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
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Always a problem that I find mostly on tenors. Some of my Martins have the mouthpiece with only a half inch of neck coverage. On my Buescher 'nino, shotr cork and all, I hollowed out the mouthpiece shank and put a nickel tube inside that extends about 10mm out of the mouthpiece, sanded the cork down and it is wobble free. The downside is that you need to really like the mouthpiece as it will be pretty much a no reverse fix. To experiment with having the neck extended, try playing the horn with the neck pulled out of the body to mimic having a longer neck. If the neck has an octave key, you may not be able to try the upper octave however.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
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Does it play sharp all the way up and down ???

I had my tech do this on a Buescher I have...extend the neck just a tad. It worked...however...I cannot say for sure that you wouldn't be risking altering something in the airflow or volumetric displacement of the m'piece/neck relationship, whch may effect something else somewhere. Just a warning....these things can be awfully tricky.

Along the lines of Bruce's suggestion, Eric Drake has done mouthpiece shank extensions which are REMOVABLE...maybe another way to go since it would be less of a permanent decision than a neck alteration. Maybe contact him about that (?)

Or...just live with the fact that your favorite m'pieces don't fit that horn well....
 

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i have had 3 12m,s and all 3 played sharp with most mpcs. the later ones were much worse than the older mulligan era i play now. extend the neck at least an inch. it dosnt trow the intonation off at all . this is the only answer. will grizle did all mine.
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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I can't speak specifically to your 12M, but on the old Bueschers, TT and Big B Aristocrat baris, there are tthree ways to solve it. A very large chamber mouthpiece (or one modified to have a very large chamber), or a piece with a very long shank (or mouthpiece extender), or a longer neck.

I have a Rascher piece that plays flawlessly as is with perfect intonation, but is "pitch black" in terms of darkness. No edge what so ever. I've had both Erik Greiffenhagen and Lance Burton modify pieces (a Bilger Morgan and a Graftonite respectively) to have a very large chamber (Erik calls it a double large chamber). This works, but obviously makes the piece quite a bit darker that they started but still have some bite when pushed. Forget about changing pieces around frequently, unless you get a number of them modified, which then means they won't work well on newer horns.

I bought a Wanna Durga, thinking it's "True Large Chamber" might work. It didn't.

For the Big B I bought a Buescher/Selmer Bundy/Signet/400 neck and that more or less works with medium and smaller chamber pieces, but the intonation isn't perfect by any means. While the base tuning works and the palm keys are "usually" ok (piece dependant), there are other intonation issues that crop up with G, G#, A and others that suggest this isn't the best mousetrap.

I haven't tried a shank extender. Lance "MartinMods" makes one, but I have no experience with it, and it does seem to limit you to the piece you have it attached to -- also limiting mouthpiece selection on the fly.

At this time, I have two necks, and have to swap those with the mouthpiece I'm using. Not a perfect solution, but makes it possible to use the horn in a variety of circumstances.

Just out of curiousity, have you tried the 245xxx neck on the 189xxx horn?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
i have had 3 12m,s and all 3 played sharp with most mpcs. the later ones were much worse than the older mulligan era i play now. extend the neck at least an inch. it dosnt trow the intonation off at all . this is the only answer. will grizle did all mine.

Good. I'll do that then. Since I've got 2 necks, I'll keep the original neck stock and use the WW & co, and extend the later 12m neck.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Funny, Temperley plays a STM on his 12Ms without any intonation problems. Smulyan has a STM with a wedge and he doesn't play sharp either. Maybe they've got neck extensions? That tears it, I'm calling Temperley now.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian
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I can't speak specifically to your 12M, but on the old Bueschers, TT and Big B Aristocrat baris, there are tthree ways to solve it. A very large chamber mouthpiece (or one modified to have a very large chamber), or a piece with a very long shank (or mouthpiece extender), or a longer neck.

I have a Rascher piece that plays flawlessly as is with perfect intonation, but is "pitch black" in terms of darkness. No edge what so ever. I've had both Erik Greiffenhagen and Lance Burton modify pieces (a Bilger Morgan and a Graftonite respectively) to have a very large chamber (Erik calls it a double large chamber). This works, but obviously makes the piece quite a bit darker that they started but still have some bite when pushed.
Forgive some idle speculation, but is it possible that every quality of the mouthpiece that brightens tone will also throw off intonation? Is the reality, on certain horns anyway, simply that there is no reconciling the two?

(I ask because I've never seen a discussion of sax acoustics that considers the relationship between tone and tuning.)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Okay, I just got off the phone with Temperley. He says that it is not the horn, but me! I must practice long tones and use a loose embouchure to play in tune. He plays an unaltered 12m. First with a metal Berg 110/2 in the '60s, and then a Link STM. He's got a Fla STM #6 for section work and a new-ish Link #9.

So I must practice. He says that the extension throws off the horn.
 

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1) But you're not playing the 12M. It didn't give you the problem when you did!

2) You know Joe a lot better than I do - I only met him once, and it was years ago - but he just might be giving you the classic Master Musician's One-Size-Fits-All Advice, seen years ago on buttons from Art-Shell Music: "PRACTICE SCHMUCK!" :lol:
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician
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Yeah, a 189K Conn bari ain't a Chu nor a 12M. Though those later horns can play sharp, the New Wonders are in a whole 'nother ball park. Paul helped me tame mine big time nearly ten years ago, and I've been loving it since. Though some have reported success with neck extensions for these older Conns, a better mouthpiece match will cure the problem without having to alter the horn. If you want a modern mouthpiece, call Ron Coelho and ask for a dug out rollover that's at least 5 1/2" long. Otherwise, you'll have to find the right pickle-barrel.
 

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temperly is wrong-its the horn. extend the neck. since you have 2 necks -get one extended and see who is right. i have played bari sax for a very long time and see this issue over and over. my solution is correct. a link stm is the best compromize -usually you can use one with out getting the neck done.
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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temperly is wrong-its the horn. extend the neck. since you have 2 necks -get one extended and see who is right. i have played bari sax for a very long time and see this issue over and over. my solution is correct. a link stm is the best compromize -usually you can use one with out getting the neck done.
Love to try one on my Buescher bari, but 10mFan seems to have cornered the market on these. :)

Before I plop down $850+, do you have a recommendation on vintage?
 

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I remember talking to Smulyan a few years ago and he said that parts of his horn are really out of tune but he has enough control to get over it. One of the issues, I believe, was that his high C is so out of tune that he has to play it as a B with the middle side key. I've got a 23' chu bari and a 245xxx 12M and the earlier horn has killer tone but is just too hard for me to play in tune with a modern mpc...so I feel your pain.
 
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