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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone,

I recently bought a Conn New Wonder II tenor and found the neck really in bad shape. It has had a pull down damage and it was badly repaired. (My tech found some a leak). Now my tech did a proper fix to it and it works better now. But I was told by someone, that this neck might be a 10M neck not an original NW II neck... So I would need your help identifying whether it is a NW II or 10M neck. My horn has a typical warbling problem with the low B and Bb ( not that severe with C) and just thinking if this neck ( especially if it is not original NW II neck) is part of the problem... ( I already had a bottle of Champange to get the cork, but it didn't help the warbling but everything else:razz:

I would highly appreciate your help.

the pics:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pj112ohr6rrjucl/AAAo0nTI2Y_AS5sq_cqzftmAa?dl=0
 

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It looks like a 10M neck but 10 M had many necks also necks that were used on New Wonders too.

The octave pip may be the specific thing. This , I believe, is the so called teacup octave pip.

The reason you have a warble can be multiple. I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that it is the neck ( however trying a different neck to take that out of the equation may be a good thing) the fact that the neck has a repair is not necessarily the reason why it may or may not be the culprit here.


Trannys tenors and 10ms had the same neck. That is early 10ms up until the early 50's. They trannys have the teacup octave pip just like the 10 model. Visually they are identical. In fact that sounds like a good pile of BS. The chu necks are also nearly identical other than the octave pip on the Chus is smaller and does not have that teacup appearance. I have played Chus, trannys and 10ms, and the 10m in my opinion has better intonation as is, and the keywork is definitely better on the 10m, especially in the left hand stack. B and C are far apart on the chus. The neck might just be a good neck, but I dont believe anyone who says chu necks are better.

 

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Hello everyone,

I recently bought a Conn New Wonder II tenor and found the neck really in bad shape. It has had a pull down damage and it was badly repaired. (My tech found some a leak). Now my tech did a proper fix to it and it works better now. But I was told by someone, that this neck might be a 10M neck not an original NW II neck... So I would need your help identifying whether it is a NW II or 10M neck. My horn has a typical warbling problem with the low B and Bb ( not that severe with C) and just thinking if this neck ( especially if it is not original NW II neck) is part of the problem... ( I already had a bottle of Champange to get the cork, but it didn't help the warbling but everything else:razz:

I would highly appreciate your help.

the pics:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pj112ohr6rrjucl/AAAo0nTI2Y_AS5sq_cqzftmAa?dl=0
Re the warbling. I had my very first case of this very recently on my main horn, a 1935 10M . To be honest I was a bit freaked out as I have owned the thing for 3.5 decades. I inspected the pads and keys and found a tiny leak on the low Side F# . Once repaired the warbling went. I believe the auto Low Eb trill also has a lot to answer for when not regulated correctly, but your horn does not have this key. I still think you have a leak buddy.
 

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Thats a 10m neck in the pictures
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for comments. So it seems the neck is from Conn 10M. Do you guys have experience using 10M neck on New Wonder? Does it work as well as the original one?
 

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I agree that the pics seem to show a 10M neck. I also agree that pulldown repair is not the cause of warbles.

Now, actually, while NWII's have a propensity to warble due to the interior geometry of the bows on their ALTOS (and this in fact has little to do with leaks)...the NW Tenors do not have this problem.

The neck of a NW I/II and the neck of a Conn 10M are actually significantly different, although to the naked eye they look the same and they DO (as you have discovered) fit each others' bodies.

The NW necks, if memory serves, have a greater taper to them. The 10M necks blow brighter that NW necks do. So a NW neck on a 10M body makes the 10M more mellow, while a 10M neck on a NW body makes the NW blow edgier...

So...while I agree that the horn should absolutely be checked out and the likelihood is there will be some leaks still which are found on re-inspection.....it isn't beyond possibility that the different geometry of a 10M neck is playing some part....
 

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Raphyel is quite right: it's a 10M neck. You can tell that by the shape of the "chimney" over the octave hole. Here's a photo of a NWII neck I pinched from Saxpics:

Musical instrument Natural material Wind instrument Tool Auto part

You can see that the "chimney" is a quite different shape — and also that the neck has a more-pronounced bow, as JayeLID pointed out, above.

I was a big fan of the old Cybersax website which used to be run by the great Bear Wilson. Sadly, he died a few years ago, and Cybersax has vanished into the æther. However, I saved the following quote from an article by Bear, which may be germane to the current topic:

[An] issue with getting modern mouthpieces to perform with vintage saxes is that you need to be close to the design tuning point (standard A440) or these saxes tend to want to buck and gurgle in the low end. For that reason you can't just push the mouthpiece on and play, not even for casual play. You need to tune it first.​

So, what mouthpiece are you using with this horn ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi, I'm using a Designer By Arnold Brilhart Hard rubber mpc from late 30's, it has large chamber so it is not the mouthpiece. I think I must both try an original NW neck with the horn as well let my tech to check the leaks once again!!! The pads we replaced two month ago and after that already two techs did the check ( the last one few days ago) but maybe it must be done once again but painstaking precisely.



Raphyel is quite right: it's a 10M neck. You can tell that by the shape of the "chimney" over the octave hole. Here's a photo of a NWII neck I pinched from Saxpics:

View attachment 232802

You can see that the "chimney" is a quite different shape — and also that the neck has a more-pronounced bow, as JayeLID pointed out, above.

I was a big fan of the old Cybersax website which used to be run by the great Bear Wilson. Sadly, he died a few years ago, and Cybersax has vanished into the æther. However, I saved the following quote from an article by Bear, which may be germane to the current topic:

[An] issue with getting modern mouthpieces to perform with vintage saxes is that you need to be close to the design tuning point (standard A440) or these saxes tend to want to buck and gurgle in the low end. For that reason you can't just push the mouthpiece on and play, not even for casual play. You need to tune it first.​

So, what mouthpiece are you using with this horn ?
recisely
 

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Jaye,

1) It's interesting to hear that the low note warble seems confined to 10M only, not New Wonder. I had wondered that for years.

2) I wonder, then, if the 16M which at least mechanically is a New Wonder (kind of), might also be resistant to the warble.

3) Could a New Wonder neck be the cure for the dreaded warbling 10M?

OP and others:

It is absolutely possible to have a completely leak tight 10M with a low note warble. I had one of these. I covered every tone hole down to the ones in question with duct tape, taped over every single solder joint as well as the tenon joint, and experimented with every mouthpiece in my drawer from a huge chamber dill pickle style to peashooters, with the piece pushed all the way in as far as it would go, and pulled out till it was almost falling off and all points in between, and it still did it. Yes, using larger chamber MPs pushed further in helped, but did NOT cure the problem.

I believe very firmly that there is an acoustic design problem in the 10M that makes it prone to this problem. One aspect is that it's less tolerant of any kind of minor leak than other horns - leaky pads that you would just blow through on a Selmer or Yamaha or Buescher will cause a bad 10M to be damn near unplayable below about low F. Since every saxophone has leaky pads starting about an hour after the technician finishes with it, being able to tolerate minor leaks is a basic requirement for the acoustic design of a saxophone.

This also makes we wonder about something else. I believe my 10M may actually have a Pan Am neck. If the Pan Am neck is actually a New Wonder bore and not a 10M bore, that might explain why my 10M does not warble.

I love the tone and keywork of the Conn 10M and have been playing them since 1978, but this is the huge Achilles' heel that goes largely unacknowledged.
 

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I agree with Turf3 above. Leaks aren't the only cause of warble, but it is a likely cause. So in order to solve the warble, you have to make sure that all leaks are sealed. Here is a quick test from Matt Stohrer that will help tell you if you have a leak (although it will not tell you where):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5dsY0xzzec

I had a slight D1 warble on my first 10M at low volumes when I got it. Putting a leak light down it showed no bad pad seals. Then I put the light right below each pad, and watched the light pattern as I slowly lowered the pad. I found a few locations where the pad would seal first on one side, and then finally as the key touch was fully depressed, would seal off the last bit of light. When I adjusted these keys to close as evenly around the tone hole periphery as I could, two things happened. First, the warble disappeared and two D2 lost its slight stuffiness. Recognize that with just putting the leak light down the horn, everything initially looked good. It was only when I got the pads to close evenly, that the warble went away. This may be more important on old Conns with the rolled holes than on other horns. So I think it is possible for a technician to think the horn seals when they just run a leak light down it.

One place to carefully check is the right hand F. It has the bridge bar to help hold the G# closed. It is possible that the F key does not close evenly under the bar area.

As a final thought, make sure that the neck seals well. As a quick check you can try one wrap of teflon tape around the neck tenon before tightening. With the teflon tape in place, snug up the neck screw, but don't overdo it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks so much for the advice. I will definitely try this leak test showed by Matt Stroher. Also I will investigate how evenly the pads are sealing when they are slowly closed. The neck tenon is tightened by my tech.
 

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I took my Chu alto back 3 times, urging my tech to get the warble out.

He finally did, and now it is perhaps the best low note player I own.

The neck is kinda tight to put on once he was done ...
 

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Thanks so much for the advice. I will definitely try this leak test showed by Matt Stroher. Also I will investigate how evenly the pads are sealing when they are slowly closed. The neck tenon is tightened by my tech.
If by "I" you mean "my tech", good decision.

If by "I" you mean...yourself....

Take the horn to your tech and have him/her do the leak investigating (unless you are accomplished at sax repair yourself).

My guess is there are leaks, and the 10M neck will actually perform quite OK on the Chu body. Possibly not, but probably....
 
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