[TroubleClef]

I have a 1947 10M and I'm interested to get folks' take on it as far as condition, original lacquer or not, engraving condition, and any other feedback including general value. I don't have a lot of experience, but I bought this for $900 in the late 90's to graduate from a Bundy. She ain't pretty, but I remember the first time I tried it out and it felt so natural like it was just playing itself, so I had to have it and it seemed like a reasonable price. I put it through some light use for a couple years and it's been stored carefully since. I really like this horn and eventually I want to get back to playing so I’m trying to get a sense of what I have and what sort of investment I might be looking at if an overhaul is in order.

It's hard for me to meaningfully describe how it plays now because my chops are mostly gone but I can get a good strong sound on each note and seems to have a lot of range in terms of volume and sound qualities, which is how I remember it. The keywork still feels solid and even. I bought it from my instructor at the time who had a lot of vintage horns and also did repairs at a shop. He was pretty excited about this one as a playing horn, for whatever that’s worth.

It's obviously well-worn and looks pretty ragged, but it's mostly free of dust, grime, etc. It has some small (few mm's) dings near the bow, and a couple of the key guards are slightly bent. When I bought it my instructor/tech did some work to get it into playing shape, but not an overhaul. At least some of the pads and cork were replaced, and he spent a fair amount of time making adjustments for leaks and I'm not sure what else now. None of the pads look cracked or obviously dried out or stained.

As far as the finish goes, it looks the same as it when I first bought it 20+ years ago so if it was ever re-lacquered it must have been long enough ago that it had already degraded to this point by the time I got it. The lacquer is completely gone over the area of the engravings and I initially wondered whether someone had buffed it off just in that area to see the engravings. But after playing it, I found the bell is also the exact place where you'd hold it in your right hand instead of holding the body across the keys and rods. Also, I don't see any scratches around the engravings so maybe the lacquer has just worn off from use? Maybe the sharpness of the engraving offers a clue, but I don't have the eye to know so maybe someone can advise on that...

Sorry for such a long post, but thanks for any feedback!

 

[TroubleClef]

One more pic...

 

[click]

Rolled tone holes, I see.

The last run of them.

Beautiful patina, to my eyes at least.

When I first got back into playing, I sent every new horn to my tech.

I wanted to be sure that if it played poorly it was me and not the horn.

 

[turf3]

Looks fine to me. Only thing is that dent right next to the low C tone hole may have distorted the tone hole, so when the time comes to replace that pad you may want to have that looked at.

 

[Grumps]

Only thing is that dent right next to the low C tone hole may have distorted the tone hole.

Or maybe fixed a low C/D burble...

Seriously though, should you sell it as is, you'd probably get at least $1,500 for it. Perhaps more.

 

[JayeLID]

I have actually seen several 10M's which had lacq which had aged exactly like that, so one cannot use that as a determinant that it is a relacq. I would say...no, not a relacq.

Looks to be in very good shape, yes a few dings but nothing horrific (take a look and see if the bell brace shows any sign of being impacted into the body tube or the back of bell, btw).

I think Grumps is about right on valuation...I have seen later, non-rth Ladies needing some servicing go for MORE than $1500 on eFlay, but have also seen earlier rth versions needing work go for less....

 

[Reet McVouty]

My advice, don't sell it. The only vintage horn I ever regretted selling was my 1935 10M. Ergonomically there are better horns out there but sound wise you can't beat a 10M. Just listen to Dexter Gordon on those Blue Note recordings playing a 10M and then on his later stuff playing a Mark VI, IMO no comparison, just a bigger, fatter sound on the 10M.

Anyway, if you're looking to start playing again you need to take it to a tech and have it looked at. Since you never had it overhauled to begin with you may want to consider getting everything done and not having to deal with the occasional repairs that will be necessary from time to time. So, good luck with it, it's a great horn!

 

[dirty]

In fact, wasn't Dex playing a RTH 1947 10M on a lot of his best recordings? That's what I'd heard.

I have a 1950 10M (non-RTH) that I picked up on SOTW a couple of years ago for around $1,550 in a good state of repair and very lightly used (very little lacquer wear). It's a great horn and I'd put it up against my (very good) Mark VI any day of the week. I can't speak to how your horn's value compares given the condition but also the fact that it's a more desirable horn (RTH, Dexter connection), but it seems worth it to me to get it fixed up.

I see a lot of people on here always talking about overhauls, but I don't think there are actually that many horns that really need to be stripped down to the body, have every pad removed, have the body and every key chemically cleaned, have every pad replaced, every spring replaced, every cork and felt replaced, every dent repaired, every tone hole leveled, key height set, key action evened, neck tenon fitted, keys swedged, meticulously reassembled, etc. to get them into good playing shape.

I bet if you take it to your tech and ask them to get it into playing shape, it'll get checked in for a COA (clean, oil, adjust), dent repair and "pads as needed." Maybe a few other little things here and there, but I bet it's close enough that you can address the issues a la carte rather than a full teadown and rebuild. And I bet it will play great afterwards.

If your tech is good, a proper overhaul will obviously be a very nice thing to have done, but I doubt it's necessary.

 

[click]

Any authority for whether Dexter's was rolled or straight tone hole?

 

[dirty]

Any authority for whether Dexter's was rolled or straight tone hole?

I'd always heard rolled around these parts, but admittedly that is purely a 70+ year-old game of telephone.

If it was straight tone holes, I'd have a problem. I've been chalking my inability to sound like Dexter up entirely to my lack of rolled toneholes. :bluewink:

 

[Grumps]

Who knows... maybe it's Dexter's horn.

 

[bokagee]

I have a 1947 10M too, I picked it up 6-8 months ago for $1100. It needs everything, I'm going to take it to Mike Bauer at Giant Steps Music in Chattanooga for a total overhaul (no relaq). I have pretty high hopes for it, we'll see how it turns out.

 

[TroubleClef]

Thanks for the great responses. I agree with those who like the weathered look. Anyway it's hard to imagine a scenario where I would sell it, even when I'm not playing I'm better for just having it around But it is good to have a sense of the value when I'm thinking about putting more money into it.

What do folks think about the engraving condition, any evidence they've been buffed out or is the missing lacquer there just wear from handling?

Dex is definitely one of my faves too, those crackling Blue Note sessions are still in heavy rotation for me. And I'm pretty sure my instructor told me which horn Dex played when he suggested this one! I was also aware that Lester Young played a 10m. As far as whether Dex had rolled tone holes or not I found a couple hi res images online where you can almost see the tone holes but it's hard to tell, one looked like maybe they were rolled, the other maybe not...

 

[Grumps]

What do folks think about the engraving condition, any evidence they've been buffed out or is the missing lacquer there just wear from handling?

My first impression looking at the horn as a whole was that the lacquer had just mostly worn away over time, giving it a near bare brass look. Now this horn is old, and it's likely that if it had an overhaul at some point before you got it, it may likely have been relacquered. But then I look a the pearls. Some appear really thick and not too worn. You'd have to think that if this horn had burned through two finishes to end up looking like it does now, those pearls would be well worn. So I'm with Jaye on its possibility of not having been relacquered.

 

[TroubleClef]

My first impression looking at the horn as a whole was that the lacquer had just mostly worn away over time, giving it a near bare brass look. Now this horn is old, and it's likely that if it had an overhaul at some point before you got it, it may likely have been relacquered. But then I look a the pearls. Some appear really thick and not too worn. You'd have to think that if this horn had burned through two finishes to end up looking like it does now, those pearls would be well worn. So I'm with Jaye on its possibility of not having been relacquered.

Thanks for lending that experienced eye! Makes sense.

 

[TroubleClef]

I have actually seen several 10M's which had lacq which had aged exactly like that, so one cannot use that as a determinant that it is a relacq. I would say...no, not a relacq.

Looks to be in very good shape, yes a few dings but nothing horrific (take a look and see if the bell brace shows any sign of being impacted into the body tube or the back of bell, btw).

I think Grumps is about right on valuation...I have seen later, non-rth Ladies needing some servicing go for MORE than $1500 on eFaly, but have also seen earlier rth versions needing work go for less....

Thanks for the close look, no damage to the bell brace as far as I can tell...

 

[Jazz House]

I agree with those saying this is original. I'm fortunate enough to have an awesome 10m in my house, but it's a relacquer and you can really see the difference. And mine isn't one of those that's been buffed out of existence either.

As for the condition, it does look like it's in good shape overall and the patina is just wonderful. I would have this overhauled and then never sell it for any reason. It's probably a fantastic horn. Just make sure that you get someone who really knows these horns to do the pad work. It might cost extra, but it'll really make all the difference if the pads are nice and firm.

 

[musekatcher]

Nice original looking condition. This would make a good keeper to overhaul, or it would sell and make someone really happy.

 

[motteatoj]

That is the coolest looking patina on a 10M I have ever seen. Every horn wears differently, this one has aged to something beautiful.
People pay good money for new horns that look like that.
Not everyone's cup of tea, but its really cool.

 

[click]

That is the coolest looking patina on a 10M I have ever seen. Every horn wears differently, this one has aged to something beautiful.
People pay good money for new horns that look like that.
Not everyone's cup of tea, but its really cool.

Yessir. That is currently a highly sought after finish, and none of the modern versions look anything as nice as that 10M.