[Papadafoe]

After about 40 years with my trusty Gemeinhardt M2S I decided to upgrade to a higher quality flute with open keys and a B foot. A couple days ago I bought an Amadeus Af780 with a 14k riser. Today I exchanged the Amadeus for an Azumi Z3RBO.

To start with, it was a very close call. Both are very good flutes for an intermediate player, a doubler or even a pro with a limited budget. Both are solid sterling silver Headjoint, and body. Both have nice tone and playability. The Amadeus is a bit heavier and feels a bit more solidly built in the hands. I have a feeling that the Amadeus’ Haynes headjoint might eventually play better for a full time flutist. I switched to the Azumi because the tone was immediately superior for me. It had more clarity and easier to control dynamics, without sacrificing the ability to introduce and manipulate overtones and harmonics.

My main gig instrument is actually blues harmonica, my 2nd instrument is lap steel guitar, and flute is my number 3. For this reason, I didn’t think it was wise to choose a flute that would require more work to pull out the best tones it could produce for me. There was much more instant gratification from the Azumi. As always, if possible anyone with these flutes on their short list should try both if possible. Either of them would be a good choice.

I also tried a Yamaha YF482 (slightly less expensive) and a Miyazawa PB102 (more expensive). I found the Yamaha to be exceptionally well made and it sounded very nice. It had a great clear tone, but I found the tone to be lacking in character. If I needed to rent a flute for a gig, it might be my first choice because of its consistency and build quality. The Miyazawa is hand built, but is alloy construction except for the lip and riser. Sonically it was very similar to the Azumi. If the Azumi and the Miyazawa were the same price it would be really hard to decide, but given that the Miyazawa is $1400 CDN more expensive than the Azumi, the choice for me was obvious.

 

[adamk]

So was it new and what did you pay if I may ask?

 

[milandro]

So was it new and what did you pay if I may ask?

I know that Matthews has great prices on Azumis... put the price selector on $ and remember that non european customers pay no VAT ( tax)

https://www.matthewsmuziek.nl/en/azumi

 

[Papadafoe]

So was it new and what did you pay if I may ask?

Yes it was new. I'm in Canada, so bought locally at Long and McQuade, prices are on their website.

 

[niceguysfo]

So you paid €2048.63 or US$2421.14

 

[Papadafoe]

UPDATE:

After about 4 weeks with the Azumi, I decided to do one last side by side with the Amadeus. I’m glad I did, because I quickly realized that the Amadeus was a better fit for me. So the AF780 is back at home with me. Both flutes were about the same price, at Long and McQuade (Canada). The Amadeus is a special edition with a 14k gold riser.

 

[JamieBob]

Interesting. I was asking this morning in a Haynes flute group on facebook about TJ Cantibile vs the Amadeus and someone suggested the Azumi. I am also in Canada, and right now Long and McQuade has the Azumi with the 14k gold plated lip plate available for online order. Due to some confusion with the Bloor store and due to Covid, I ended up picking up the TJ from Bloor and the Amadeus from Burlington to try at home (after Christmas, when my wife says I can try them out to pick one - and return the other - sigh...) but I'm wondering if I should order the Azumi by mail as a third choice in the rotation.

I'm a sax and clarinet player over 40 years now but only seriously worked on the flute since march. I have a gemeinhardt (about 20 years old, probably now retails for about $800 Cdn, not sure the model) but it seems wonky for intonation and also a bit airy in sound).

I'm curious what others might think about which of these would do well for a guy like me who can't decide quickly anyway. But I find it takes a while to zero in on one to get a feel of it. Switching back and forth when trying them gets discouraging due to my lack of experience and therefore lack of ability to quickly find the sweet spot when switching between flutes on a trial basis.

My concern is finding an instrument that will be clear and also an instrument with good intonation - which is something sorely lacking with this Gemeinhardt.

Thoughts?

 

[mmichel]

I don't think intonation (of the instrument itself) is a real concern with any modern flute.

Of the three that you're considering, I've tried the Amadeus and the Azumi and ended up with the latter. We in the US are fortunate to have sellers like FCNY, which will send you a boxfull of flutes on trial to compare at once.

The build quality on both is about the same, but the headjoints are quite different. The Amadeus comes with what seems to be a more traditional embouchure hole. It's smaller and more resistant than the one on the Azumi and, as a result, the lowest notes are a little bit easier to play loudly. However, the tone of the Amadeus seemed less flexible (i.e., harder to achieve different tone colors) and I found it harder to get a clean tone when playing the highest notes. The Azumi has a larger, squarish-cut, tone hole and I found it much easier to vary tone color and to play at a range of different volumes while maintaining a clean tone. I also found it much easier to play high notes without airiness on the Azumi. It does, however, take a little more air than the Amadeus.

 

[JamieBob]

I don't think intonation (of the instrument itself) is a real concern with any modern flute.

Of the three that you're considering, I've tried the Amadeus and the Azumi and ended up with the latter. We in the US are fortunate to have sellers like FCNY, which will send you a boxfull of flutes on trial to compare at once.

The build quality on both is about the same, but the headjoints are quite different. The Amadeus comes with what seems to be a more traditional embouchure hole. It's smaller and more resistant than the one on the Azumi and, as a result, the lowest notes are a little bit easier to play loudly. However, the tone of the Amadeus seemed less flexible (i.e., harder to achieve different tone colors) and I found it harder to get a clean tone when playing the highest notes. The Azumi has a larger, squarish-cut, tone hole and I found it much easier to vary tone color and to play at a range of different volumes while maintaining a clean tone. I also found it much easier to play high notes without airiness on the Azumi. It does, however, take a little more air than the Amadeus.

Thanks. As it turns out, I also went ahead and ordered the Azumi to try with the other two. Long & McQuade in Canada is very flexible with that stuff. I ordered the Azumi from them by mail but can return to any of their stores. So I will be having a flute fest the week of Christmas and returning 2 of them.

I got the impression the Azumi headjoint might be more "pro" (and therefore more exacting in its expectations that the player can match it with skill) but I think it may prove to be a better flute to grow in to....

And my concern was the airiness in my sound, and wanting to avoid that. I'm willing to trade for a need for more air to get the clearer sound. I play a Cannonball tenor and I'm used to "needing more air." That sucker is like blowing through a fire hose.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[CaneMutiny]

If there is air in your tone/sound it ain't the flute.

 

[adamk]

The flute embouchure hole has to mirror the shape of the hole on the flute (in miniature) but seen at the angle of blown air.
Any variance creates eddy currents which disrupt the air flow and can cause all sorts of extraneous sounds and wasted air.
Some air sound is inherent to flute playing and is part its character and charm.

 

[JamieBob]

OK. So now, several days after Christmas, and having tried all three of these instruments -- the Trevor James, the Azumi and the Amadeus -- I've got it down to 2.

The Amadeus is out for me. First of all, I could get a good sound from it but not great like the other two; it just seemed to lack character for me. And second, the intonation was not impressive. Ironically, it was the only one of the three with the split E but the E wasn't the problem; other notes were, though. But the more I played the other two, the more this felt like, "oh yeah. This one. I guess it's ok."

So now, I'm down to the Trevor James and the Azumi. They are close, and I find switching back and forth I need slightly different embouchure with each (although I expect this is normal switching between any different flutes to a slight degree).

I can get a wonderfully clear sound with either compared to my Gemeinhardt (which is rather airy compared to these guys).

Feel-wise, the Trevor James feels more "solid," more "robust." The Azumi doesn't feel frail or weak or anything. But somehow it feels tiny in my hands compared to the Trevor James. I can't see anything dimensionally different enough to discern with the eye what the differences might be. But it makes me wonder about longevity. Any thoughts on durability on either of these guys?

Another thing I noticed last night was the troubling lack of set screws for adjusting the mechanisms to regulate the contact points between, say, the D-E-F keys on the right hand and the pads that close with them. My Gemeinhardt has a bunch of them and it came in handy when I had to set it up a bit after pulling it out of storage.

Is it not common to have adjustment screws for these sorts of things on a good flute? I know it is hit and miss on saxes. My Cannonball has them all over the place; I've tried the P Mauriat saxes and they play nice but I'm not sure I'd buy one because these seem to be totally non-existent on the Mauriats and so if something needed tweaking it looks like an instrument technician's nightmare (ie, no do-it-yourself on those slight adjustments and expensive and time consuming on the gluing and sanding corks and the like to adjust that stuff when needed. How well regulated do flutes stay over time for this kind of stuff? Does anybody else have issues like this on your flutes?

I'm not sure I'm fond of the wooden case with Trevor James - I picture those screws popping out of the wood over time but somehow don't anticipate that issue with the other case. But not a biggie i don't think.

But about the sound......

On a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being sweet and clear and 5 being "colorful," as in "husky and dark, the Azumi seems to run 1 to 3 and the TJ seems to be able to go from 2 to 5. The TJ embouchure-wise seems to require a little more what I'm used to with my Gem but adjusting shouldn't be a biggie if I get used to it.

Part of me wants the Azumi to win - partly because I think I have "Z headjoint = professional cut headjoint" stuck in my head from the way it is promoted (meaning, to me, it might be better in the long run as I develop and it might take me further than the TJ) but that might be overblown. And professional (Altus professional) headjoint might not be professional for me anyway.

And the other reason I like the Azumi is it's so PRETTY. It has a rose-gold plated lip plate. It's a nice look. But I realize it's supposed to be about the sound. And sound wise i think i might be able to get a little more oomph - power - out of the TJ. But that could be subjective too.

So help me out here. Thoughts in general about the sound, and specifically, does anyone have any idea about how critical / how often / how expensive the repairs run on getting these things set up without adjustment screws as opposed to having them? Anyone know how the reliability runs on these brands as far as trouble-free mileage out of the vehicles before they need new tires and brakes?

I realize the Azumi feels more delicate than necessarily is delicate; and delicate doesn't have to translate into fragile.

The feedback is appreciated. But I thought I would share where I'm at if it helps anyone else process what they're trying out too.

Thanks

 

[Taragot]

Interesting, thank you for the good description, JamieBob! I can't help you with your decision (perhaps nobody here can at this stage). But do you have a teacher or a good flute player in your area, that can share his/her opinion?
Both flutes are priced about the same?

 

[mmichel]

Feel-wise, the Trevor James feels more "solid," more "robust." The Azumi doesn't feel frail or weak or anything. But somehow it feels tiny in my hands compared to the Trevor James. I can't see anything dimensionally different enough to discern with the eye what the differences might be. But it makes me wonder about longevity. Any thoughts on durability on either of these guys?

Another thing I noticed last night was the troubling lack of set screws for adjusting the mechanisms to regulate the contact points between, say, the D-E-F keys on the right hand and the pads that close with them. My Gemeinhardt has a bunch of them and it came in handy when I had to set it up a bit after pulling it out of storage.

Is it not common to have adjustment screws for these sorts of things on a good flute? I know it is hit and miss on saxes.

It varies, as it does on saxes, but your Azumi should definitely have them, if it's a current or recent production version. I have a Z3RBEO and it has all of the adjustment screws you mentioned.
However, most of the screws are hidden; located on and accessible from the back side of the flute (i.e., with the screw heads on the underside of the associated keys).

As far as feel, the Azumi feels pretty beefy to me, at least compared to other advanced and semi-pro flutes. Maybe the springing is just light compared to the Trevor James?

 

[JamieBob]

Interesting, thank you for the good description, JamieBob! I can't help you with your decision (perhaps nobody here can at this stage). But do you have a teacher or a good flute player in your area, that can share his/her opinion?
Both flutes are priced about the same?

Covid, ya know, so slim pickins, but yeah. It's a taste thing I guess. Priced within $50 of each other. At this point, aside from the concerns about mechanical setup on them, I'm tending to think it's like when I shop for a color TV - if I can't see the difference unless I have them side by side, it's probably too close to worry about. So if I can determine this Azumi is durable, I'm thinking I just like her because..... well, because she's so.... pretty.

 

[JamieBob]

It varies, as it does on saxes, but your Azumi should definitely have them, if it's a current or recent production version. I have a Z3RBEO and it has all of the adjustment screws you mentioned.
However, most of the screws are hidden; located on and accessible from the back side of the flute (i.e., with the screw heads on the underside of the associated keys).

As far as feel, the Azumi feels pretty beefy to me, at least compared to other advanced and semi-pro flutes. Maybe the springing is just light compared to the Trevor James?

Thanks. That helps. I figured it should. They've gotten a good reputation over the years it seems. So I will look again for those. As far as the beefy feel, it might be partly that it is sprung lighter. But it feels lighter and smaller around somehow, too. But it is good to hear you say that "compared to others." As I've not gotten my mits on many Muramatsus or Sankyos or anything, it helps with a frame of reference.

Thanks.

 

[JButky]

And the other reason I like the Azumi is it's so PRETTY. It has a rose-gold plated lip plate. It's a nice look. But I realize it's supposed to be about the sound. And sound wise i think i might be able to get a little more oomph - power - out of the TJ. But that could be subjective too.

So help me out here. Thoughts in general about the sound, and specifically, does anyone have any idea about how critical / how often / how expensive the repairs run on getting these things set up without adjustment screws as opposed to having them? Anyone know how the reliability runs on these brands as far as trouble-free mileage out of the vehicles before they need new tires and brakes?

I realize the Azumi feels more delicate than necessarily is delicate; and delicate doesn't have to translate into fragile.

If it has the Rose Gold Plated Lip plate it is probably the Anniversary model. This was limited run and your model # should end with a "P"

Azumi's are not delicate and built to withstand abuse. They are extremely durable with rock solid keywork. They can be setup with very light spring tension since that is what a lot of professionals prefer, But you can have that adjusted to your liking.

And yes, the adjustment screws are underneath.
Joe B

 

[JamieBob]

If it has the Rose Gold Plated Lip plate it is probably the Anniversary model. This was limited run and your model # should end with a "P"

Azumi's are not delicate and built to withstand abuse. They are extremely durable with rock solid keywork. They can be setup with very light spring tension since that is what a lot of professionals prefer, But you can have that adjusted to your liking.

And yes, the adjustment screws are underneath.
Joe B

Thanks, Joe. When all was said and done, I ended up going with the Trevor James. For me, it was easier to quickly dial in to "the zone" and get the sound I'm looking for. I was finding the low notes easier to get on Trevor James. So I'm not sure that the Azumi would have eventually been a better choice; but at this point, I'm sticking with the Trevor James and loving it so far.

I would say I 'd recommend the Azumi as a consideration to anyone asking, though. For me, the Azumi and the TJ were very close; the Amadeus was a very distant 3rd: intonation was not great, tone color was hard to find and it felt very stiff to get a decent sound out of it. The sound lacked any color for me.

To each his own. But I have to say the TJ is really working well for me.

 

[KarenF]

Interesting that I stumbled on your "journey"...

What model of TJ did you end up with?

I am a hobbyist, coming out of a 20-year hiatus from playing, and I feel that my current flute, an Armstrong 303B, while "decent", has a tough headjoint to play. I used it for several years in a community band, and made it work, but felt I had to work unnecessarily hard to get there. It is a 1994 model, and is lacking in some "bells and whistles" found on the current flutes.

I had the chance to try a TJ Chanson, a Powell Sonare 505, an Azumi 2 and an Amadeus 680. I want the offset G/Split E combo. The Sonare did not have the Split E so it was hard to compare. It had a beautiful sound, but did not "grab" me. I was most excited about the Azumi before I even tried it, based on reviews I had seen, and I wanted to love that one best.

The TJ did nothing for me, tone-wise, for whatever reason, but I know they are great flutes.

When I picked up the Azumi, it felt like it was custom-made for my small hands! And the sound was like butter! I then tried the Amadeus, which to me also had a smooth, lovely sound, but slightly brighter. It had a heft to it that I found quite alluring, and it somehow "looked" more solid, yet the ergonomics were not that of the Azumi ( and like you, I could see no discernable difference in mechanism dimension.)

I am not quite in a position to purchase right now, but these are the 2 that I will be giving a hard look at when I am. They are pretty much in a tie at the moment.

Thank you for your insight! I found it most helpful!

 

[turf3]

Interesting that I stumbled on your "journey"...

What model of TJ did you end up with?

I am a hobbyist, coming out of a 20-year hiatus from playing, and I feel that my current flute, an Armstrong 303B, while "decent", has a tough headjoint to play. I used it for several years in a community band, and made it work, but felt I had to work unnecessarily hard to get there. It is a 1994 model, and is lacking in some "bells and whistles" found on the current flutes.

I had the chance to try a TJ Chanson, a Powell Sonare 505, an Azumi 2 and an Amadeus 680. I want the offset G/Split E combo. The Sonare did not have the Split E so it was hard to compare. It had a beautiful sound, but did not "grab" me. I was most excited about the Azumi before I even tried it, based on reviews I had seen, and I wanted to love that one best.

The TJ did nothing for me, tone-wise, for whatever reason, but I know they are great flutes.

When I picked up the Azumi, it felt like it was custom-made for my small hands! And the sound was like butter! I then tried the Amadeus, which to me also had a smooth, lovely sound, but slightly brighter. It had a heft to it that I found quite alluring, and it somehow "looked" more solid, yet the ergonomics were not that of the Azumi ( and like you, I could see no discernable difference in mechanism dimension.)

I am not quite in a position to purchase right now, but these are the 2 that I will be giving a hard look at when I am. They are pretty much in a tie at the moment.

Thank you for your insight! I found it most helpful!

I'm not sure of your price range but I'd try flutes from the big names:

Yamaha
Miyazawa
Sankyo
Muramatsu
Powell
Haynes
(Powell and Haynes will call them something else as a "second line" - typically Haynes or Powell headjoint mated to a Chinese or Taiwan body)

If you are coming from an Armstrong, consider also an older Haynes Commercial which is basically what an Armstrong is a copy of, only made a lot better.