[milandro]

Well, this is a variation on the new marketing trend. Up until now I have heard of a few companies declaring that their horns are made in Taiwan but assembled elsewhere, of course while they are very keen to say this to justify the much higher price ( Aizen or Brancher for example) none has, to my knowledge, ever shown any of the pictures of their horn being assembled within their exclusive domain.

Similarly, when a company says they " designed" a saxophone what do they exactly mean by that? If their design is limited to the cosmetic parts (if at all because from studying the pictures it doesn't appear to have anything which distinguish this saxophone) I propose that the Taiwanese company has given (if anything at all!) Ishimori a choice of some parts with which they could , possibly but I have no evidence for that ,personalise and differentiate the products made for a given company from the general production of the Taiwanese producer.


Unless someone is prepared to show the potential buyers their blueprints for a saxophone that would be exclusively produced for them (Is it? Why? How?) , my take on the production of any Taiwanese company is that the body shape the position of the toneholes and the keywork would be identical to any horn produced by the maker in Taiwan (not all taiwanese saxophones are the same but those made by using the same tooling from the same maker are!)

If that is not the case, Ishimori or any other company would have had to foot a bill that would be very substantial to spread the cost of the original and unique tooling and an of an innovative project (which in my book is what is meant by original design........) and if that is the case they would be so proud of their original approach that they would be gladly showing the buyer who will pay such a premium for the privilege of acquiring a true original Ishimori design as opposed to being yet another Taiwanese horn, same as the one sold at one third of the price by another brand.

I would be interested to have any kind of proof that Ishimori has commissioned an original design as opposed to have asked a maker in Taiwan to make them a few horns a year ( 100? 200?) with a more or less accentuated cosmetic personalisation marked Ishimori.

 

[milandro]

......a great achievement for the Taiwanese industry! :mrgreen: :bluewink: while the mark up ¥ 493,500.......is a great achievement for the Japanese crafty marketing!

 

[milandro]

They sure look cool and come without high F#. I increasingly find the latter to be a clutter.

you mean they cost even less to make but they are sold for more? :twisted:

 

[milandro]

do you know which Taiwanese company makes them and why would an Ishimori Taiwanese made Woodstone cost 400% more of another horn made at the same factory?

 

[milandro]

I don't know where they are made but Ishimori equipment is notoriously expensive.

......I am just coming back from the ishimori store in Tokyo where I could play test a Mark V (222k), a Reference 54 and a Woodstone New Vintage. The latter is designed by Ishimori and assembled in Taiwan. The shop employee told me they started to manufacture those last year. .........

I don't have any problem with things being expensive if they are unique or particularly well made and different from other cheaper products! I just like to know why they are expensive.......it seems to me that if one decides to spend more than 6000$ on a horn one would at least have the right to know in detail why he does that as opposed to buy the same horn made in Taiwan in the same factory for another company costing 1/4 to 1/2 that kind of money.

I think it is only fair to ask. Don't you?

If it was me buying a horn for that kind of money I would demand proof of this horn being DESIGNED by Ishimori (instead of them being simply, as I suspect, branded Ishimori by the Taiwanese maker) as much as I have previously and uselessly demanded Aizen and Brancher (even in person at the trade fair in Frankfurt) to show their Taiwanese made saxophones being superiorly assembled (compared to the obviously inferior Taiwanese assembling) at their facilities.

In my opinion people who make special horns (like Rampone & Cazzani), have no secrets and are rather open in showing what they make and how they make it, so you know why and what you are paying good money for.

I for sure don't have a problem with a saxophone costing a lot of money. I certainly won't tell Inderbinen that he is doing anything wrong! The man uses mechanics made by Yamaha but beats the hell out of sheets of brass and does all the work himself (which must be an incredible job). Same story for Jim Schmidt, who at least up until now did this, on a one by one piece basis, in his workshop (although he told us that he was considering having his horns made either in Taiwan or China) and he, by the way, is one of the few people in the world who can claim to have an ORIGINAL design not based on a copy of anything else.

 

[milandro]

I don't disregard anything I just don't believe that they have designed it.

Even reading what they wrote in their claims comes down to adding few, not exactly essential specifications to a horn essentially made by someone else.

Claiming that the thumb rest improves the response of certain notes is ........ ludicrous. Selmer seals the bells with sealant , soldering is not a new thing but it can be a nice detail (albeit not absolutely necessary) and saxophones don't resonate with audible vibrations in any part bell or otherwise.

However Mr. Ishmori would definitely be happy to read the comments of people that he can be so easily convinced to spend such an amount of money. Enjoy your very expensive horn!

 

[milandro]

Just as matter of interest. I assume that you have played one and make an assessment based on an actual experience, and that you deem the price a rip-off on that basis.

No, I haven't played one, but the point I made before and several times already is not that I thave any doubt that it is a great horn.

My problem is with the claim that this is an Ishimori " design" as opposed to Ishimori having commissioned saxophones from a Taiwanese company (they don't dispute they are made in Taiwan) with the addition of a couple of ( more or less meaningful.......most of it is absolutely mambo jambo as Jaye pointed out ) features and their name on it and sold it to a ridiculous price for the privilege of having a special Ishimori thumbrests, a soldered bell, a silver lyre attachment and a special bell engraving .............compared to an identical saxophone costing as little as 1/4 to 1/2 the price.

I know very well that there are many horns " made in Taiwan" sold by companies throughout the world but none are charging such outrageous amounts of mark up!

My problem is that one should substantiate claims of the " design" unicity in order to command that kind of money.But apparently that is not the case!

There are many horns made in different Taiwanese company and they certainly aren't the same and the diatribe involving " My horn is the same as P.Mauriat" fills pages and pages on SOTW but I don't want to go there!

I don't want to know which other saxophones are made at the same plant where these are made! I just want to point out that to get 6000$ you need more than a few hundred $ in parts and work (and both at cost are much less than that) for a horn that essentially is the same as another but cheaper one.

If there is more than those simple and more or less useful customisation ( and I would leave the marketing words for what they are for anybody to judge them!!!) would anybody tell us where this considerable extra beef is gone other than in the ample pockets of the shop?

When a car or computer company has something outsourced they outsource only the making of an original design and they have been footing the bill of developing something special and unique anyway.

Did Ishimori design a new body tube, a new neck? A different placement of the toneholes? ? Who are " Designers" at a company that is essentially only a musical instruments shop?

 

[milandro]

I am sure that if you ask nicely, for a mere 4000$ more, perhaps that can be arranged..

 

[milandro]

no I believe that if one is a devout follower of his patron saint, St. Dismas, he will, in all probability, be always we needing the patronage of St. Dismas

:bluewink:

 

[milandro]

well, as they said in another thread in Yogi Berra Style: " they are all the same.......... unless they are different" :twisted:

 

[milandro]

well, I thought it was an endplug...........:bluewink::faceinpalm:[rolleyes]