[craigmultireedguy]

Hey all,

The other day I stumbled upon and watched this:

And I’ve been dwelling on it in the back of my mind since. When I was in grad school studying woodwind doubling, my clarinet teacher told me that often a reed that is too hard is more conducive to producing a good tone than a “normal strength” reed. Marcus Strickland says that you need a hard reed to play well in the high range and apparently Branford Marsalis taught him this. As someone who has played really hard reeds on saxophones in the past and has since switched back to softer reeds, I always thought that premise was ridiculous. But that was before I ever started seriously playing soprano, so what if it really is the case for soprano and smaller?

I’d love to hear all of your thoughts on this. For the record, I love my sound on soprano as is with my middle of the road setup (6* and 2.5 reeds) and can do everything the music calls for up to and including altissimo, but if there’s a better way to get a great sound I’m always open to it.

Craig

 

[ROC]

It’s going to be dependent on other factors, I guess, but I’ve always approached it as ‘find the right reed for your mouthpiece of choice’.

I’ve used reeds up to 4 on soprano pieces around .060 tip in the past.

My current piece is .105 so I use a 1.5 and I like the sound I’m getting.

Whatever works.

 

[High Plains Thumper]

A lot depends on the lay and chambering of the mouthpiece, whether a harder reed should be used or not. A wider lay, a softer reed works better because of the distance it must vibrate to produce a tone. Softer reeds will tend to wear out quicker, though.

If a reed is too hard, there is a tendency to bite down harder when the embouchure muscles tire. This is particularly true for clarinetists.

A reed can be soft and still easily hit falsetto if the mouthpiece has the right lay for it.

An exaggerated example is when 12 years ago, I purchased a Rico Graftonite Tenor Saxophone Mouthpiece in lay C-5. Never had this problem before with Berg Larsons, older Brilhardts and other mouthpieces. It's lay was wide enough and laid back enough that I could not get any tenor sax reeds to sound right with it, so it got put away.

Later, just for kicks, one day I tried one of my bari sax reeds. Bingo! I was able to use the mouthpiece and get a decent sound out of it. I guess it was the longer cut of the bari reed that better matched the lay on this particular mouthpiece. As I would think manufacturers would tend to during production improve their products with newer batches, when problemmatic feedback is received, I don't know if this would be true for the current lot.

 

[perina14]

I remember reading that Steve Lacy used soft reeds (2?) on a very open rubber Link (10).

 

[Benny]

there are so many variables in an individual’s tone production and physiology, let alone personal sound and musical concept, that blanket statements never work.
A teacher’s judgement on a student’s reed strength needs to be made on what they hear as being present or lacking in the sound in terms of current needs/stage of development and it’s place in the long term learning trajectory.
Other than that it’s not teaching, it’s dogma, or ‘telling.’
Teachers teach, tellers work in banks so listen to a teacher……

 

[skeller047]

The mouthpiece plays a key role here. Here’s an example from 3 different mouthpieces, all around 0.060” tip (this equivalent to a 6 in Link numbers or an F in Selmer).

Mouthpiece 1 - Selmer Super Session, F tip. Plays very well, using a 3 or 3.5 reed. Nice freeblowing sound, a little bright. Palm key notes are a little difficult, but setting the firmness of my mouth (NOT biting, just tensing the muscles) helps.

Mouthpiece 2 - 10MFan Virtuoso, 6 tip. Plays effortlessly in every range, with a rich, warm tone. 3 or 3.5 reed. No embouchure calisthenics required.

Mouthpiece 3 - Link HR, 6 tip. Plays smoothly, with a warm dark tone. 3 or 3.5 reed. Notes above C3 are VERY difficult, requiring what to me is extreme lip pressure. You could say it encourages biting. I haven’t tried it with harder reeds.

Mouthpiece 3, the Link, was then modified by me. I flattened the table and recut the curve (Babbitt quality control strikes again…). But while it played much better, high notes were still quite difficult. I looked closely at the piece, comparing it to both the Virtuoso and a Jody Jazz piece I have (which also plays very well). I noticed that the rollover baffle was slightly higher in the center than at the sides. I filed it so that it was slightly lower in the middle, kind of mimicing the shape of the tip rail. End result - a more centered tone, and high notes played effortlessly.

The amount of material I removed was about 5 thousandths of an inch, maybe 10. That is, 0.005”-0.010”. The difference in playability was extreme.

Conclusion - if you are having trouble with tonal stability and the full range of the horn, make sure it’s not your mouthpiece. This is even more critical for soprano than alto or tenor, because of the small dimensions.

 

[Tonerbust]

I'm on board with harder reeds on soprano. I find Hemke 4s on a Bari 72 soprano piece works best for me. Takes away any semblance to an oboe sound and makes it easier to play the high range.

 

[craigmultireedguy]

there are so many variables in an individual’s tone production and physiology, let alone personal sound and musical concept, that blanket statements never work.
A teacher’s judgement on a student’s reed strength needs to be made on what they hear as being present or lacking in the sound in terms of current needs/stage of development and it’s place in the long term learning trajectory.
Other than that it’s not teaching, it’s dogma, or ‘telling.’
Teachers teach, tellers work in banks so listen to a teacher……

I certainly agree with you to an extent, but I don’t think “dogma” is the right term, more like “school of thought.” The fact of the matter is, when choosing a teacher in the first place the vast majority of us choose someone we hope to sound like in some way, with regard to sound or approach. I don’t think it’s possible to be completely open-minded with regard to teaching. Instead, they can impart a school of thought and then we can choose to stay or change teachers.

But anyway, my point in starting this thread wasn’t to ask if hard reeds are objectively better, but rather if there is any shade of truth to the theory. After all, there definitely IS with clarinet, in my experience!

 

[whaler]

Small tip harder reeds is the way to go on soprano. I’ve tried a bunch of soprano mouthpieces and the S-80D that came with mine plays better than anything I’ve played.
The Super Session was a dud but I’d probably like the Concept.

 

[HeavyWeather77]

TL;DR: I agree with Whaler.

Longer version, especially for a multi-woodwind type of player:

Hard reeds sound good (to me, anyway). I don't go into extreme Steven Reilly territory, I've never played a #5 reed on any woodwind. But I play reasonably hard reeds on all my woodwinds, and I've found the right proportion of reed strength and mouthpiece opening on all my horns to a degree I'm very happy with at the moment. That looks about like this....

Soprano: Selmer Super Session "I" (I think around .068") with Vandoren Blue Box 3.5
Alto: Selmer Magni-Tone rubber opened by Matt Marantz to .085 with Vandoren V16 3.5
Tenor: Marantz Florida .108 with Rigotti 4 Medium (similar to a Vandoren 3.5 in my experience)
Clarinet: Viotto custom mouthpiece with Vandoren V12 #4

I consider Vandorens to be reasonably "hard" from 3.5 on up, since they tend to run stiffer than competitors. I've used much larger tip openings on alto and tenor in the past, but I personally found that I preferred the sound on a medium opening with a harder reed than a larger opening with a softer reed.... and on soprano, I've ALWAYS felt that a hard reed is necessary for a sound I enjoy. If the player can make that happen with a larger tip opening, cool! But I think a harder reed should come before a larger tip opening on soprano and clarinet, for sure. Alto, tenor, and bari... much more up to personal preference.

Ultimately, there's no right or wrong way to do things, and whatever works for you... works for you! Don't change anything just because you're "supposed" to based on what some joker on the internet writes. But the above has been my experience over the past couple decades plus, and it works for me.

 

[Brannigan]

They're playing on a Selmer concept in this video, which is a really small tip opening.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

 

[twocircles]

If we plotted all of our tip openings and preferred reeds strengths, we’d likely end up with a cluster around a straight line with harder reeds matched with smaller tip openings and softer reeds matched with larger tip openings. The lay comes into play too and would probably account for a lot of the variation.

A couple of the posts talked about mouthpieces with #6 tip openings. Depending on brand, that would likely be 55 to 60 thousandths of an inch, or a Selmer F.

The Selmer Concept in the video comes in one tip opening, 1.06 mm. That's 41.7 thousandths of an inch, or a Selmer B. It’s very small. I can blow a Hemke #2.5 closed on a D opening, though I haven’t tried it in a while. I’d think a Vandoren #4 or #5 strength would be requisite for B opening.

I play a Selmer S80 D with #4+ reeds, depending on brand, but that is as large a tip opening as I would go. I think with even a Selmer E, I might soften my reed a bit. I feel like the harder reeds help me get the clearer, more lyrical sound of my sound concept.

When I was first starting soprano, there used to be lists of players and the setups they used. Theo Wanne had the most complete one, though some players changed a lot. I would hear a player whose sound I liked and go and look them up on the list. Consistently, they played Selmer Soloists or S80s with a D opening and hard 4+ strength reeds. There was a C* or two and maybe an E. The only exception was Grover Washington, Jr. who reportedly played a Runyon Classic 8 with Rico #5 reeds, but I think this is a longer lay mouthpiece giving the reed more length to vibrate.

There are lots of variables in choosing the right mouthpiece.

One other comment about the video. When the student tried the harder reed, he touched his throat with his hand, because of the unexpected effort there. I made the mistake of tightening my embouchure as I started playing harder reeds thinking I needed to "build up my chops". The soprano embouchure in my estimate is not much, if any, tighter than alto, but the air control required is much greater, and for me, this was key. I had to take a break, re-start, and re-train myself to play focusing on breath control using throat and oral cavity instead of my embouchure.

 

[Hassles]

I thinks we need to consider the soprano tonal spectrum here. A number of discussions have been had where the concensus is wider tipped pieces influence a tone that leans towards the darker end of the spectrum - obviously those wider opened pieces ain't necessarily gonna' want / need stiffer reeds. So - its you who decides what you want and then dial in your setup to suit that want.

 

[Grumps]

I added soprano at a relatively young age and played the closed tip vintage mouthpiece in the case as I developed my soprano chops. By the time I was out of high school, I was using #4 reeds with it. Now that I play a much more open Super Session (J), I prefer the middle of the road #3.

 

[buddy lee]

Isn’t it the same as every other horn? Play a setup hard enough that allows the upper register to play well but not so hard that you can’t subtone the lower register?