[LateNiteSax]

Whats the deal with the hand hammering of the bell in the manufacturing process.?
What happens if you don't hand hammer the bell?
Is this one reason why some saxophones, especially Selmers which are probably the most inconsistent of all pro horns, of the same model and serial # series sound better than others?

 

[turf3]

It's a way to get the bell into the rough form before the final shaping, burnishing, etc., take place.

You're starting with flat sheet brass and you need to form it into the bell shape, with a variety of complex curvatures. You can cut out two roughly bell-shaped pieces, braze them together, and then (with frequent annealing) beat them into the rough shape of a sax bell (old way) or you can use a large stamping press and dies to form two precise halves which are then brazed together (and probably subjected to a final sizing operation). Because the bell will need to be annealed multiple times during the course of raising it from flat, the residual microstructure effects are probably trivial.

As to why some groups of saxophones sound different than others, it's going to be mostly down to dimensional variation, but the main cone of the sax body is the biggest influence except on the lowest notes. For any note above about D, the bell is basically just a speaker horn.

 

[KeithL]

Great deal of discussion on this here; https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?287690-Hydroforming-Vs-Handhammering

 

[1saxman]

You err when you take to explain away why the hand work involved with making a Selmer has nothing to do with why they have a certain sound and many other qualities that keep them on top of the sax world. It is in fact the hand work and other things that give new Selmers variability. This variability, far from being a quality issue, is what makes it possible for different players to find horns that work for them, instead of them all being exactly the same.

 

[turf3]

You err when you take to explain away why the hand work involved with making a Selmer has nothing to do with why they have a certain sound and many other qualities that keep them on top of the sax world. It is in fact the hand work and other things that give new Selmers variability. This variability, far from being a quality issue, is what makes it possible for different players to find horns that work for them, instead of them all being exactly the same.

I'm not saying the hand work is not what causes the variability - I agree, it probably is. However, the bell has a limited effect on the horn compared to the rest of the tube.

As to re-framing product variability of a mass produced item as a positive rather than a negative, that's a whole line of discussion that could go for decades.

 

[adamk]

I have an Armstrong(Couf), King 613 and Buescher 156.
The key work and feel is different on these tenors which is why I prefer the Buescher, but the sound is always me.
I'm pretty sure all 3 were hammered.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

Yamaha hydroformed the bells on their initial Z offerings, then they switched to a hand hammered bell on their next generation horns. Their horns are incredibly consistent from horn to horn regardless of whether their bells are hand hammered or hydroformed. It does seem labor intensive to hand hammer a bell to shape versus just machine forming each one in a matter of seconds. It also seems like a good marketing tool to be able to claim the hand craftsmanship that goes into hand forming a bell versus machine forming it.

I think Selmer saxophones are so inconsistent because of their set ups out of the factory. Yamaha, though not perfect, is a world ahead of Selmer in terms of factory set ups.

 

[saxoclese]

The absence of comments that a "hand hammered" bell produces a superior tone because it vibrates better is refreshing. Hopefully it is evidence that saxophone players are beginning to understand and accept the fact that there is no scientific evidence that wall vibrations of the bell or body have any effect upon the sound waves in the air column inside.

 

[datsaxman]

... an optimist ...

Hope so too

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

Aren't they all?

 

[Dr G]

Aren't they all?

No.

See Post #2.

 

[datsaxman]

... pessimist ...

 

[LateNiteSax]

From: https://w:ww.jhs.co.uk/p-mauriat-system-76-2nd-edition-alto-sax-un-lacquered

"Our French brass and other metals are exceptionally resonant due to the extensive hand-hammering process it must endure in our factory. A single saxophone body will be hammered as many as 400 times before proceeding to the next technician for final shaping."

 

[BH9]

Just a mere hand-hammering is not enough to bring out the warm old-school tone. It must be hand-hammered by an expert craftsman, applying the exact soulful impact pressure which will enhance the brass' crystalline structure, a skill that can only be learned by thousands of hours apprenticed to a master hand-hammering specialist.

 

[Reet McVouty]

From: https://w:ww.jhs.co.uk/p-mauriat-system-76-2nd-edition-alto-sax-un-lacquered

"Our French brass and other metals are exceptionally resonant due to the extensive hand-hammering process it must endure in our factory. A single saxophone body will be hammered as many as 400 times before proceeding to the next technician for final shaping."

That's what's call a sales pitch or "hype" if you like. Tell me, did Charlie Parker sound any different playing on a Grafton, with a plastic bell?

 

[J-Moen]

That's what's call a sales pitch or "hype" if you like. Tell me, did Charlie Parker sound any different playing on a Grafton, with a plastic bell?

The real question is - Was the Grafton hand hammered?

:lol:

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

No.

See Post #2.

Hydroform

 

[Dr G]

Hydroform

There exist some videos on YouTube from either Yamaha or Yanagisawa (perhaps both), showing the forming operations, and joining the halves.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

Hydroform

https://americanhydroformers.com/two-musical-hydroformed-components/

 

[Oric Muso]

Don't Selmer use pressed or hydroformed bells now? I think I read they had stopped the hand-hammering process as it takes more time doing it that way. (??)