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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Selmer USA. A lot of "gurgling" at bottom D, C, B, etc. I tried different mpc's and reeds. Its somewhat controllable with a #2 Fibracell on a Selmer S80 E mpc. Somebody said to toss a wine cork in the bow. I did.

Pulled the cork. Tossed it into the bow. Oops! No cork for the bottle. So, drink the wine. Gurgle gone! So what? Who cares? I don't. Waiting for the cork to wear out. More wine.:bluewink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
that's a fairly common problem with tenors, it's a common fix
But why? I'm guessing the cork - or whatever small piece of something - disturbs the air flow. It reminds me of the "burble" under an airplane wing. The air flows faster over the top than past the bottom, thereby creating lift. If the air is disturbed the wing "stalls" and the spin begins. I'm a lot of years away from flying Cessna's and even further from college physics. The airplane wing burble isn't a desirable thing at all, so don't stick a cork atop the wing.

I suppose the correct term is turbulence. In the relatively small enclosed space of a sax bow the turbulence is easier to control. I'd like to find a study of the phenomena as it applies to the sax, and why it seems to appear in Selmers and some Conns. I have a vague recollection of something called "the Bernoulli Principle." Dissimilar air masses passing over and under a body, or something like that.

Anyway, it is an interesting effect.
 

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I think it's a volume problem in the curl or something. There are threads on here somewhere that describe it better
 

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I think it has more to do with slightly reducing the over all volume of the bow rather than air flow...then again I could be wrong.

^ simultaneous post
 

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It is a very interesting effect. The worst horn I had for it was a Conn Chu alto, but after 3 trips to my tech, he fixed it somehow, and now it is one of the best low-end horns I have. Sometimes it can be fixed with the right mouthpiece. My Malerne Artiste tenor motorboats on C and below, very bad with some mouthpieces some not so bad. Unless I use the mpc that came with it - a Brilhart Special (6 digit serial number), then not a hint of a gurgle. Both the Chu and the Malerne would act right with a cork or a mouthpiece cap in the bell.
 

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This is one of my favorite topics which I have spent considerable time studying and investigating. I am by no means an acoustics expert, but I have discovered some things about the saxophone "warble" as it is called. Almost any sax can be made to do this if the mouthpiece is pulled off far enough. What happens is that the increased volume inside the mouthpiece makes the "missing cone" too large for the rest of the body of the sax. This puts harmonics out of proportion and out of tune with one another (called inharmonicity). On some saxes this mismatch occurs even when the mouthpiece is its correct position.

This website gives some more information about the "warble" effect including pictures and a video of what is happening with the note's harmonics as the "warble" occurs.

Warble Study
 

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John,
The link doesn't work. Is your web page sharable?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
John,
The link doesn't work. Is your web page sharable?
It worked for me. Here's part of what I sent to him; "It appears to me in the simplest instance that the airwave - longer at lower frequencies, has to travel farther at the lower portion of the bow curve than it does at the upper portion. That then wouid/could cause a sound wave phase shift that results in "motorboating." The phenomena doesn't occur in shorter wave higher notes. As well, it doesn't seem as apparent on alto saxophones or not so much, oddly, on baritones. It probably doesn't occur on bari's because of the greater distance from wall to wall. That's just a guess, though. In any event it is an interesting malady on some tenors. That it doesn't happen on all of them is another paradox."
 

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Push the mouthpiece on really far and then really pulled out. If one of those options fixes it, then you are stuck with the cork in the bow. If it doesn't fix it, then there is probably a leak. Often at the palm keys or the G#. Drop a leak light in and see what is happening. Another remote place to look is the neck to body fit. Any leakage there will be a problem. If nothing fixes it, try some different size corks or similar and when you find the right one, take off the low C key and glue the cork inside the bow just up the bow towards the bell. I have a cork in my main alto (Conn NW) and my Conn curvy. Just part of life. Never had a tenor problem however.
 

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Selmer USA. A lot of "gurgling" at bottom D, C, B, etc. I tried different mpc's and reeds. Its somewhat controllable with a #2 Fibracell on a Selmer S80 E mpc. Somebody said to toss a wine cork in the bow. I did.

Pulled the cork. Tossed it into the bow. Oops! No cork for the bottle. So, drink the wine. Gurgle gone! So what? Who cares? I don't. Waiting for the cork to wear out. More wine.:bluewink:
Maybe the wine (a whole bottle!!) simple made you not become able to tell the difference between a warble and a regular note. Could have not been the cork, then ... [rolleyes]
 

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OP, I was just wondering, did the amount of warble decrease in direct proportion to the decrease of wine in the bottle? :mrgreen:

I'd try this myself, unfortunately the only wine I have at the moment has a screw top cap (and it's a good Gewurtraminer, too. Damn modern technology!).
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
OP, I was just wondering, did the amount of warble decrease in direct proportion to the decrease of wine in the bottle? :mrgreen:

I'd try this myself, unfortunately the only wine I have at the moment has a screw top cap (and it's a good Gewurtraminer, too. Damn modern technology!).
Yes indeedy. As the level of wine in the bottle decreased there was a linear decrease in the warble. Or more accurately, the warble was still there but - I didn't care! I wonder; if I pour the wine directly into the bow would I get "motorboating?" I think I'll try it with a nice dry cabernet next time. I'm not sure a Gewürztraminer would do the trick - too sweet - but perhaps good for some Guy Lombardo sounds. ;-)
 

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Or maybe try champagne ala Lawrence Welk... bubbles! :D
 

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My 47 The Martin Tenor warbles on low C#.I am still breaking in my Runyon Custom and have had some troubles with G# leaks.I did find today I could get clear notes by adjusting air flow,more air and opening throat more.I will try the cork,leaks and try with and without the spoiler in Runyon.Anyone else had troubles with The Martin's ?
 

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I had a '37 10M that warbled like a drunken songbird. I got so frustrated with it that I ended up selling it for, um...a song.
Haven't missed it at ALL. Not even once.
 
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