[Fernando Carranza]

Hi: I bought today this Gretsch Commander tenor at eBay. I read that this stencil comes from Conn or Martin, but I found in the net some notes that related it with Buescher. What do you think???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130590074674

 

[William Bua]

That's probably a buescher with the wrong neck for the horn, but 3 mouthpieces in the case make up for that.

 

[Neil Sharpe]

The Gretsch Commander has been discussed before. I picked one up on Ebay and was able to do a direct comparison with the Buescher New Aristocrat. Appears that with the Commander, it could be custom-ordered in terms of pads etc. Mine came with half the original pads which were snap-ins and amber rollers. And it has a great tone.

Here are links to the various threads re the Gretsch and Buescher (including the "American") in case you haven't seen them already.

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...etsch+american

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...etsch+american

"Gretsch Commander" and its comparison to Buescher New Artistocrats.

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...ight=commander

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...ight=commander

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...ight=commander

Also the question has been raised whether Gretsch did a stencil for Conn: see the following
http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/...ead.php?t=1584

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?22169-Buescher-Aristocrat-vs.-Commander-Opinions

 

[Carl H.]

http://woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1584&highlight=gretsch

 

[milandro]

I would like to see a better and closer picture of the LH table which doesn't look terribly Buescher-esque to me. I know that Commanders have been discussed before but as this was a stencil there could be also several sources (e.g. not all Panam's, as it is mostly assumed, were Conns , for example). Besides, when a horn has features that are reminiscent of both Conn and Buescher most of the times it is neither and then the most probably culprit becomes one of the Italian makers with the exception of Grassi.

 

[JayeLID]

I'll throw my hat into the doubters ring, too. I think not a Buescher...yes, the body looks sorta Conn Pan Am-esque....impossible to really tell if it is a 10M body as Carl's link to that thread indicates...because one would need calipers to determine that.

All of Neil's links are dead, BTW....

And, also...yup...amazing how someone can take multiple pics of a sax and miss the pinky table in every damn one of 'em.

But that is one unusual set of RH spat keys...not the familiar anything. I do not recall seeing any american-made stencil with keys like that. Not saying it's European, because for some reason I would doubt that Gretsch would contract overseas when there were so many makers in the u.s. But who knows ?

Now, there ARE Gretschs which are clearly made by one or more of the big ol' 3...but I am not sure this happens to be one of 'em....

I do feel that all of the ascriptions thus far are a bit specious....that's one unusual lookin' horn.

But it doesn't resemble a Buescher or Martin Gretsch at all, so if one twisted my arm I could see the Conn connection the most....

 

[Fernando Carranza]

Thanks for your concepts here, I have doing a little research and viewing the pics of the sax, I agree with JayePDX and I see a connection with Conn.....thanks again, every note is very valuable!!

 

[JayeLID]

How is it ? Have you received it ?

 

[LaPorte]

Hi: I bought today this Gretsch Commander tenor at eBay. I read that this stencil comes from Conn or Martin, but I found in the net some notes that related it with Buescher. What do you think???

Made by Holton; series 575 - early Collegiate II; complete serial number (first digit is dropped!):
# 115984; Year of manufacture: 1934

 

[Fernando Carranza]

Wow!!! It´s a Holton!!! Amazing...I don´t receive it yet, in my country is a long process with import things....but thanks!!!!

 

[Mark Fleming]

I'd second the Holton. I thought it was a Conn with the wrong neck, but that's the right neck for a Holton and the right "delta" shaped low C key. Could be that the neck was relacquered after a repair or, better yet, just bad lighting. That picture showing the neck a different color and not all the way down in the socket would have caused me (and probably others) to not bid. But you may have a great deal, especially if any of the mps are better than student grade.

Mark

 

[JayeLID]

Nice eye, LaPorte !

Collegiates are good horns...actually, all Holtons are good horns although they get absolutely no respect at all. The are the 5th member of the "vintage Big 4" (my avatar over to the left is a Holton 265 alto).

Collegiates were their second-shelf horns, occupying the same niche as models such as the King Clevelands, Martin Indianas, Conn or PanAm 16M's, Buescher 30A's.....good, solid, great-sounding players.

Worth putting $200-400 of work into her if she requires it. It probably will...the seller makes no airs about it being playable, but physically it looks to be in decent shape. The horn would still be a very worthy investment even if you needed to do that.

The Holton tone tends to shake the foundations of most buildings.....

I'll put that one in my file...some Gretsch horns are Holtons...that's a new one on me....:mrgreen:

 

[Fernando Carranza]

It´s a Holton, without a doubt....what can I expect with this sax in terms of soundwise, can someone tell me???

 

[Warilla]

I have two Gretsch Commander saxes of a similar vintage to yours.

My tenor has the same neck and I am pretty sure it is original. The only Buescher I could find on Saxpics from pre-war with this kind of neck was the Selmer Padless - also a Buescher stencil from the same period.

The keyguards on my tenor, and also my alto, are very distinctive with three separate wire strands running together up to the point where they separate to form the legs. I have seen this on other Gretsch horns. They are not shown in the horn you have bought.

Checking the octave key mechanisms mine are similar to a Buescher. They also have amber rollers and there is a keel reinforcing the bow of the tenor, which are also Buescher characteristics.
(My technician, who has an Aristocrat, swears they are Bueschers.)

My Gretsch alto appears to be a later model later but is very similar and lacks the bow reinforcement and the neck is not reinforced.

Both are great, big sounding vintage horns with a fast action.

 

[Fernando Carranza]

thanks Warilla!!!! there are most people around who can tell me more about soundwise and action?? Thanks in advance!!

 

[JayeLID]

This thread was begun a long time ago....do you have the horn ???

It is as I noted in my last reply...just a good vintage model. Nice big tone, very fat and very wide. The keywork is fine, nothing ergonomically strange about Holton keywork or playability.

 

[Fernando Carranza]

I have my horn in the tech, in two days I will receive it and I will tell you, the last six months it was in the tech!!!! I´m very impatient.....

 

[Fernando Carranza]

I receive my tenor yesterday, I proof it very hard and it sound very very well, very balanced, I´m so accustomed to Conn big sound, and this sax has a more flexible sound, is big, not so big than my Conn by good low tones, amazing high ones, good core, it´s a shame that more people doesn´t have the chance to prove one of them......highly recommended!!!!

 

[bruce bailey]

Since Gretsch is a music company that buys the saxes from other makers, they just didn't sell all that many making them a bit rare. I have never seen one in 50 years of repairing in the US and Europe. You may have the only one in South America!

 

[JayeLID]

They had 'em stenciled by a few american companies. This is the FIRST time I have seen a Holton of that name...Holton didn't stencil too much. That's a darn old Collegiate also, very different looking than their later ones and a bit more like a stripped-down Revelation in appearance.

And Fernando is yet again another player who has now experienced the fact that Holton made great saxophones. Each new player who gets their hands on one dispels the still frequent online misconception that these weren't as good as the american Big 4.

Their 'core', as you say, is just as sweet as can be.....