So I have posted a few times already mentioning that I have been playing for a while, but don't have the technical prowess to show. I have had a couple of teachers, but didn't stay too long with them. The thing that was a recurring theme, was me getting back to basics. When I say basics they have said to master my scales and know them like the back of my hand (know how many sharps/flats in them). For the more basic scales I know them for example: F - one flat aka Bb, A - three sharps: G#, F#, C#, G - one sharp: F#, etc. When it comes to the more difficult scales F#, C#, etc, I have to fumble through them. Then when it comes to the arpeggios it is the same thing for those scales. I am looking for a course and a good place to start so that I can get better. I haven't had that light bulb moment when it comes to improvisation, and trying to figure this out. I have a couple Jamey Aebersold books, but was looking into another program. The biggest thing about the other program it is very expensive ($400), for the complete program. Thanks in advance for the advice.
Good courses to get better?
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Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
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I don't know what that is but it can't be worse than Aebersold.
I think you need to find a good actual teacher but sadly that will have to wait until after COVID unless you can find a good online 1 to 1 because 1 to 1 is really the best way to go.
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You say in other posts, you've been playing for 20 years...
What can you do? Play tunes? Etudes? From the page or by ear?
You say you can't play scales and arpeggios in all keys.. what does a practice session look look like to you?
I ask because, as an adult learner, discipline and motivation have to come from within - no course or teacher can do that for you.
What can you do? Play tunes? Etudes? From the page or by ear?
You say you can't play scales and arpeggios in all keys.. what does a practice session look look like to you?
I ask because, as an adult learner, discipline and motivation have to come from within - no course or teacher can do that for you.
I mostly choose songs I like and try to play along/transcribe it. I will also try to mess around with it, to see what I can add to it. Other times I will also try to add into my practice, going over scales, patterns that I already know (to get them faster), and try to come up with my own patterns (sometimes).
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When I struggled with keys like F# or Ab, or whatever, I spent more time on them. Just play a hard key for a week or two.
On a more, well, scolding, note - if you can play an F major scale, why can’t you play the other 11? (or 14, depending on how pedantic you are...). When I was 15, I started playing every scale in every key. Now, every practice, I take SOMETHING through all 12 keys. I’m 72. You just have to do this.
My suggestion, get the first two Joseph Viola books, and spend an hour with them every day for the next 6 months. There, that’s your first lesson.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
On a more, well, scolding, note - if you can play an F major scale, why can’t you play the other 11? (or 14, depending on how pedantic you are...). When I was 15, I started playing every scale in every key. Now, every practice, I take SOMETHING through all 12 keys. I’m 72. You just have to do this.
My suggestion, get the first two Joseph Viola books, and spend an hour with them every day for the next 6 months. There, that’s your first lesson.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Two things a lot of folks seem to advise:
1/ practicing / learning isn't playing.
2/ don't practice what you can do, practice what you can't do.
The problem can just be that one has an instrument to play music with and learning technique isn't as fun / interesting / novel / fulfilling. But no course or teacher can make an adult spend the time, every day, that everyone needs to to learn.
You might try to actually write 12 keys and some exercises in a grid on a bit of paper and tick them off one by one. Or something like that.
1/ practicing / learning isn't playing.
2/ don't practice what you can do, practice what you can't do.
The problem can just be that one has an instrument to play music with and learning technique isn't as fun / interesting / novel / fulfilling. But no course or teacher can make an adult spend the time, every day, that everyone needs to to learn.
You might try to actually write 12 keys and some exercises in a grid on a bit of paper and tick them off one by one. Or something like that.
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Xaymaca, to address your original post, I'm not aware of any self-contained courses on the internet specifically for saxophonists to address and improve the issues you're talking about. I will, however, say that online lessons are a great option right now. I teach all my college music students, as well as a few private students (including some here on the forum!), entirely online at the moment, and with great results. Many other experienced and excellent players here like Steve Neff, Pete Thomas, and Tim Price do as well. If you're gonna pay for an online course, just get a private teacher for weekly or biweekly lessons. It will be much better for addressing the specific issues that apply to you and how to improve them.
I'll also echo a post above in that spending time in unfamiliar keys is the one and only way to make them less "difficult." There aren't actually any difficult keys, and any key can lay easily on the saxophone, which is an ingenious mechanical design. There are keys that are more familiar than others, at least at first, but with enough time spent developing familiarity, the key of F# becomes just as comfortable as the key of G.
I'll also echo a post above in that spending time in unfamiliar keys is the one and only way to make them less "difficult." There aren't actually any difficult keys, and any key can lay easily on the saxophone, which is an ingenious mechanical design. There are keys that are more familiar than others, at least at first, but with enough time spent developing familiarity, the key of F# becomes just as comfortable as the key of G.
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You’ve taken lessons with multiple teachers who’ve all recognized a need to work on fundamentals...perhaps they were all onto something. Maybe none were good matches for you, but You have to learn to read and speak the language if you ever want to sound like you have any idea what you’re talking about.
What are your goals as a player?
A good teacher match will find ways to help you get up to snuff on technique and reading, but you and you alone have to do the work.
What are your goals as a player?
A good teacher match will find ways to help you get up to snuff on technique and reading, but you and you alone have to do the work.
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Yes!
Sounds like you already know exactly what you need to do. Just do it. Getting another teacher to tell you what you already know, then ignoring that advice yet again accomplishes nothing.
Write yourself a schedule that has you learning one scale per week, inside and out, backwards and forwards, arpeggios and all. You probably already know all the so-called easy keys, so that leaves only 6 scales or so for you to learn.
Learning scales is like learning multiplication tables. When you first start, it goes very slowly because you do mental calculations at each step to get the answer. But in the end, you memorize the answer so it comes instantly. That's the point you have to get to with all your scales. For example, I know instantly that the 5th of F# major is C# without stepping up through the scale mentally.
Write yourself a schedule that has you learning one scale per week, inside and out, backwards and forwards, arpeggios and all. You probably already know all the so-called easy keys, so that leaves only 6 scales or so for you to learn.
Learning scales is like learning multiplication tables. When you first start, it goes very slowly because you do mental calculations at each step to get the answer. But in the end, you memorize the answer so it comes instantly. That's the point you have to get to with all your scales. For example, I know instantly that the 5th of F# major is C# without stepping up through the scale mentally.
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I sort of agree with what most people are saying here, but with caveats.
It is 1000% true that without the dedication to learn it, you won’t be able to do it. That doesn’t mean you can’t have fun playing, but there will be a definite dividing line. That being said, sometimes it is an issue of focus. In fact I would say most times it is an issue of focus, and if you are having this issue, no matter what you are doing, it will take longer. The statement about practice regimen is an important thing. Make one. A real one. Not, I’ll practice scales for an hour. Practice for more reasonable amounts of time to build your focus. Honestly, becoming organized is one of the keys. Practice log... the whole nine.
I tend to divide practice into two primary sections with multiple subsections. Maintenance items and dedicated practice items.
Example:
Maintenance Practice
Longtones/Subtones/Overtones - 5 minutes
Tonguing - 2 minutes
Scales - 5 minutes / 5 minutes
(This is mixed in practice using Cycle of 5ths or Chromatic movement. Then practicing the scales using Modes, Full Range, Multi-Octave form as my basis.I do not arpeggiate in this section.)
Patterns - 3 minutes
(Pick patterns in all keys and some times up and down modes; multi-octave
Dedicated portion
Transcription/Ear Training (5 minutes)
Performance Music Practice (10 Minutes)
Dedicated Focus (10 minutes) / (10 minutes)
Dedicated focus is anything I am particularly feeling that day. Note that there are two sections of minutes beside some. If so, I do it that many times in sing hour long practice stints. If I have more time. I add more of the dedicated practice parts. By breaking things up, I keep from getting myself upset when I make a mistake. EVERYTHING IS TO BE DONE WITH A METRONOME. Not trying to yell, just be matter of fact.
Teachers are great for showing you examples and bouncing ideas off of, but you need to be dedicated to a level of organization to make progress.
It is 1000% true that without the dedication to learn it, you won’t be able to do it. That doesn’t mean you can’t have fun playing, but there will be a definite dividing line. That being said, sometimes it is an issue of focus. In fact I would say most times it is an issue of focus, and if you are having this issue, no matter what you are doing, it will take longer. The statement about practice regimen is an important thing. Make one. A real one. Not, I’ll practice scales for an hour. Practice for more reasonable amounts of time to build your focus. Honestly, becoming organized is one of the keys. Practice log... the whole nine.
I tend to divide practice into two primary sections with multiple subsections. Maintenance items and dedicated practice items.
Example:
Maintenance Practice
Longtones/Subtones/Overtones - 5 minutes
Tonguing - 2 minutes
Scales - 5 minutes / 5 minutes
(This is mixed in practice using Cycle of 5ths or Chromatic movement. Then practicing the scales using Modes, Full Range, Multi-Octave form as my basis.I do not arpeggiate in this section.)
Patterns - 3 minutes
(Pick patterns in all keys and some times up and down modes; multi-octave
Dedicated portion
Transcription/Ear Training (5 minutes)
Performance Music Practice (10 Minutes)
Dedicated Focus (10 minutes) / (10 minutes)
Dedicated focus is anything I am particularly feeling that day. Note that there are two sections of minutes beside some. If so, I do it that many times in sing hour long practice stints. If I have more time. I add more of the dedicated practice parts. By breaking things up, I keep from getting myself upset when I make a mistake. EVERYTHING IS TO BE DONE WITH A METRONOME. Not trying to yell, just be matter of fact.
Teachers are great for showing you examples and bouncing ideas off of, but you need to be dedicated to a level of organization to make progress.
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I sort of agree with Saxophone Strange, in that I divide my practice into maintenance/fundamentals, and dedicated "music stuff". But I disagree with the time values posted. I cannot take a new pattern through all 12 keys in 3 minutes - I need 20 or 30 minutes. I can maybe do an old familiar pattern in half that time.
Repetition is a powerful thing. But it doesn't work, I think, if you just do 2 or 3 reps and then move on, and come back the next day. 10 or 20 reps will "burn" those patterns into your nervous system much more effectively. And to me this is the point of maintenance practice, to make "automatic" your scales and arpeggios. And whatever patterns you practice.
Similarly, for dedicated practice, spend 1/2 hour on one tune, and do that every day for a week. You will know that tune at the end of the week, and more importantly, you will know what you don't know about that tune!
So my recommendation is this:
Maintenance:
* Longtones/Subtones/Overtones - 5 minutes. But just do one, and keep doing the same one for a week or two, then move on the next cycle.
* Scales - OR - Arpeggios - OR - Patterns - 25 minutes. Always full range of the horn, always all 12 keys, if it's too difficult just pick 3 or 4 keys, and do the next 3 or 4 the following week. Maybe do a few tonguing patterns, but do those 10-20 times each also.
Dedicated:
* Pick a tune to work on - OR - do a transcription - OR - work on playing a half a set (i.e. a tune list) - OR - whatever else you think you need to do. --- 30 minutes. Do the same tune/transcribing/set list every day for a week.
Again, alternate every week or two with the scales, arpeggios, patterns and the tune, transcription, set list. The point here is that you cannot enter the "zone" in 5 or 10 minutes. You really need to repeat many times in the same session, then do the same thing the next day, to create the dedicated neural pathways (or whatever happens in your brain) so that these things lie under the fingers.
I don't know any professional player, classical or jazz, that hasn't spent a couple years of 2-3 hours a day on technical stuff like this. And still does it for an hour or so every day. It's just what it takes.
Repetition is a powerful thing. But it doesn't work, I think, if you just do 2 or 3 reps and then move on, and come back the next day. 10 or 20 reps will "burn" those patterns into your nervous system much more effectively. And to me this is the point of maintenance practice, to make "automatic" your scales and arpeggios. And whatever patterns you practice.
Similarly, for dedicated practice, spend 1/2 hour on one tune, and do that every day for a week. You will know that tune at the end of the week, and more importantly, you will know what you don't know about that tune!
So my recommendation is this:
Maintenance:
* Longtones/Subtones/Overtones - 5 minutes. But just do one, and keep doing the same one for a week or two, then move on the next cycle.
* Scales - OR - Arpeggios - OR - Patterns - 25 minutes. Always full range of the horn, always all 12 keys, if it's too difficult just pick 3 or 4 keys, and do the next 3 or 4 the following week. Maybe do a few tonguing patterns, but do those 10-20 times each also.
Dedicated:
* Pick a tune to work on - OR - do a transcription - OR - work on playing a half a set (i.e. a tune list) - OR - whatever else you think you need to do. --- 30 minutes. Do the same tune/transcribing/set list every day for a week.
Again, alternate every week or two with the scales, arpeggios, patterns and the tune, transcription, set list. The point here is that you cannot enter the "zone" in 5 or 10 minutes. You really need to repeat many times in the same session, then do the same thing the next day, to create the dedicated neural pathways (or whatever happens in your brain) so that these things lie under the fingers.
I don't know any professional player, classical or jazz, that hasn't spent a couple years of 2-3 hours a day on technical stuff like this. And still does it for an hour or so every day. It's just what it takes.
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Depends on the pattern. Plus the dedicated portion can be extra pattern practice. Whatever I am feeling. I just like to pull the values down to basics and adjust depending on how much time I have. Generally, my actual pattern time is 3 minutes per for all (maj, min, aug, dim) but that is only on pattern intensive days. Sometimes I run them up “modes”. Sometimes arpeggios. Depends on what I am feeling.
Also, since I generally try to get in two hours a day, there is extra “iterations”.
Also, since I generally try to get in two hours a day, there is extra “iterations”.
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Oh and something one of my teachers taught me to get patterns really quickly was to play things backwards, adding one note at a time. You go through the individual motions of tonguing depressing keys, whole nine slowly while maintaining air pressure. Around the third time the muscle memory is at least enough to be there to hit consistent metronome speeds. I first learned it working on Parker licks and patterns.
My goal is to be able to be a good improviser. My definition of a good improviser is someone who can take any song and make it their own (at the same time not playing the same riffs or embellishments all the time). I want to be able to play and hopefully start recording some music as well.
Thanks very much I am going to borrow that from you.
"Jazz Blues Accelerator" on learnjazzstandards.com by Brent Vaartstra https://www.learnjazzstandards.com/jazz-blues-accelerator/ is expensive as a purchased course, but only $25/month as an Inner Circle member (and quit anytime).
Brent is a guitarist, but the materials are in concert/Eb/Bb/bass and what I like about this course is that it eventually cycles through all keys in a very practical manner that encourages retention: play the guide tones, chord tones and scales for a jazz blues in every key. It also emphasizes learning tunes by ear (three jazz blues heads and three etudes), which are then transposed to three other keys each.
I do play scales in all keys every day (varied root motion in C4, C5, thirds, from random roots chart) both ascending and descending over full range of horn with metronome. Good for me.
But the course will give you a schedule and structure to thoroughly master scales in a musical context.
Some folks like structure and schedules, others are completely self-motivated and insightful enough to polish their deficiencies on their own, achieving equal proficiency in all keys. I'm in the middle.
If you seek guidance on what chord scales to play over what chords in a progression, Walt Weiskopf's four courses on mymusicmasterclass.com are outstanding! But you will have to transpose to other keys on your own initiative and with self-discipline.
Brent is a guitarist, but the materials are in concert/Eb/Bb/bass and what I like about this course is that it eventually cycles through all keys in a very practical manner that encourages retention: play the guide tones, chord tones and scales for a jazz blues in every key. It also emphasizes learning tunes by ear (three jazz blues heads and three etudes), which are then transposed to three other keys each.
I do play scales in all keys every day (varied root motion in C4, C5, thirds, from random roots chart) both ascending and descending over full range of horn with metronome. Good for me.
But the course will give you a schedule and structure to thoroughly master scales in a musical context.
Some folks like structure and schedules, others are completely self-motivated and insightful enough to polish their deficiencies on their own, achieving equal proficiency in all keys. I'm in the middle.
If you seek guidance on what chord scales to play over what chords in a progression, Walt Weiskopf's four courses on mymusicmasterclass.com are outstanding! But you will have to transpose to other keys on your own initiative and with self-discipline.
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You can achieve that goal by having solid technique and tone the full range of the horn and developing a vocabulary. Unless you're a savant, that comes from listening and developing your own ideas, then practicing them on an instrument...exactly as everyone here and all your previous lesson teachers have said.
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If improvisation is your goal then you have more work to do. Outside of all the technical practice, you need to also listen like a madman. It’s a vocabulary thing. Listen, listen listen and pick things up. Train your ears. Then continue working on your technique and ability to play what you hear. Sing along. Get the solos and sounds of things you like into your head and hands (transcription helps, but try doing it completely from memory instead). I would also say that there needs to be a base level of interest in composition as well. Study those elements as well, so that you can apply them, but... one thing at a time. Why not try to just learn your scales first.
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I would just suggest learning those scales before jumping into a complete course of some sort. You know you have to learn them. There is no secret to it. You just have to sit down with them and play them over and over until the repetition turns to long term memory. I would suggest doing it while a play along is playing like Jamey Aebersold Volume 24 so you are training your ears as well as your brain and fingers. Relying on an outside source to complete something you know you need to do is part of the problem. It comes down to hard work and motivation. You have to learn to pull those things out of yourself and you will go much farther......
I also suggest improvising using those scales to Vol 24 as well. It doesn't matter if it sounds good or not but whether you know the scales and notes well enough to not hit a wrong note. If you can improvise without being repetitive and not hit a wrong note for the whole play along then that says you know the notes in the scale. (you can work on making your lines and ideas sound better later on)
With those scales with more flats or sharps in them I find that it helps students to think about what isn't flat or sharped instead. For example, F# major everything is sharped accept B. C#, everything is sharped. B, B and E aren't sharped.
The other more advanced practice routine I have found helpful for students is to think in terms of key signatures while practicing the C major scale. All the notes are CDEFGABC but you flat or sharp them in order of the circle of 5ths.
CDEFGABC up and down Think C
CDEFGABbC up and down Think F
CDEbFGABbC up and down Think Bb
CDEbFGAbBbC continue...... Think Eb
CDbEbFGAbBbC Think Ab
CDbEbFGbAbBbC Think Db
C#D#E#F#G#A#BC# Think F#
C#D#EF#G#A#BC# Think B
C#D#EF#G#ABC# Think E
C#DEF#G#ABC# Think A
C#DEF#GABC# Think D
CDEF#GABC Think G
This seems complex at first but you are just thinking CDEFGABC but changing the key signature in your head each time. It helps you master the circle of 5ths but also all the key signatures. Once you can do this then you try it with simple patterns. This helps you start thinking outside the box and enables you to play more melodically while soloing. Don't try to do this until you have a mastery of the scales in my first paragraph though......Good Luck!
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