[sandster]

Ho, Ho, Ho! I was caught up in GOLD FEVER! Earlier, I posted that I was excited 'cause I just bought a gold plated CMel. I was told it was gold plated by the seller. The pictures were of low quality and I was feverish, (hence the Gold Fever). The horn arrived and I was immediately disappointed Didn't look like the satin-type patina I expected. Beuscher made a polished brass sax, the silver plated ones and the gold plated. Looks like I got the polished brass. Looking at a few pictures of various gold plated horns, there seem to be different finishes, some burnished, some satin, some shiny. I think it likely that the seller was mistaken...or, she was very crafty and scammed me well! Haven't heard from her yet, so it's probably the latter. The case was really the topper in this delusion of mine. The picture was of a rich red leatherette case. In my OP, I described it as "prestigious". "Gold Fever!" (I'd just played a Christmas Party gig at the local Prestige Inn...must have come from that). I should have done a little more research BEFORE I sent the M.O.!!!
The case had been recovered, (not a bad job), with the red stuff. There's a tiny little part of me that wants to believe the finish is gold, but I don't know how to confirm this unless I get a metallurgist to do some tests. Probably not necessary with so many experts on this forum. I'd like to know for sure what it is, altho' I'm leaning toward polished brass. I'm going to attempt to show some pics in another post. If unsuccessful at that, I'll send some via email to anyone who thinks they can tell what the finish is. And...thanks for the forum! Now I can understand those crazy gold seekers of the last century! :mrgreen:

 

[spike421]

It seems to me that, unless it's a re-lacquer or at least stripped and buffed recently, and assuming it's at least 50 -80 years old, a horn that age would show some corrosion or at least a considerable darkening of the lacquer that would indicate that it's lacquerd brass.

 

[jicaino]

pix?

 

[JL]

It should be pretty easy to tell. You don't need a metallurgist.

Look at areas of wear, like the side keys, and see if you can find silver plate beneath the gold. The silver will show wherever the gold plate has worn away. And yeah, send some good pictures, especially of the engraving and any wear areas.

 

[Hornlip]

Hey I've snagged a couple of burnished gold plate horns the sellers thought was just brass. They were pretty dirty so the shine didn't really come through - the extensive engraving on the horns is what made me think they might actually be gold plated horns.

Gold plate will likely have silver plating under it; sometimes tarnish will sort of come through the gold plate, making the horn look dirty. Get a gentle silver polish like Hagerty's and polish up part of the horn where there's an expanse of metal without too many posts, parts etc in the way, say on the back under the thumb hook, or above. If it's burnished gold plate you'll be able to tell - for one thing, it just looks like gold, not brass; it has a different luster.

 

[sandster]

Hornlip: Yeah, I have polished a section of the neck with Brasso and it comes up real shiny, just like the brass bell from an old boat. I haven't spotted ANY touch points that show silver underneath. No extensive engraving, either. Spike421: No discoloration that I can see. jicaino: some pix, hope you can tell from them what this is!

 

[jicaino]

I can see someone misrepresenting that horn... I'm having second thoughts myself. I'm leaning towards bare brass but I'm not really sure at first glance

 

[Hornlip]

Looks like brass, alas!!

Well. What the heck. You wanted a C-Mel, now you've got one!!

 

[JL]

From those photos it's almost certainly brass. We could use some better photos, but those don't look like gold plate to me. And if there's no silver showing anywhere on such an old horn, I doubt it's gold. You can't plate gold over brass; it won't adhere to brass, so gold-plated horns are always silver-plated first, with the gold plate on top of the silver.

p.s. Don't ever polish a horn with brasso!! It's way too abrasive.

 

[soybean]

Buescher also made saxophones in something that looked like satin gold but was actually some sort of lacquer or paint. I had a (late 1920s or early 30s) Buescher C-mel in that finish. It looked like gold in the ebay photos but when it arrived we could tell it wasn't real gold. >> Your horn looks like brass to me.

 

[sandster]

Thanks, guys! Yeah, I know I shouldn't use Brasso, but, what the hell. If it's brass, there shouldn't be any harm, right? :tsk:
Wow, this is going to be some rebuild! I've started putting some WD40 on posts to free up screws. It'll be interesting to compare my silver plated Buescher with this, if I get it finished. First order of business, 'tho, is to complete my Pan Am rebuild. I finally got back to it last week, so here's hoping I can get it to play.

 

[DannyMetalC]

Darn, it looks like brass to me. The seller should have known better, maybe you can get a portion of the price refunded?

It looks like a nice horn though anyways. You will really start having some fun once you get one of your various C-Melodies in top playing condition!

Danny

 

[kavala]

Often people will refer to gold laquer as gold plated.
They are not the same thing.
I am assuming your particular horn was once gold laquered.

Brasso, contains an abrasive as suggested above.
This abrasive will wear away gold plate, gold laquer and brass.

So, no, don't use Brasso on any finish, otherwise the finish will be finished.

 

[sandster]

No "Brasso for a brass sax? I don't get it. Is there something I don't understand here? I can see not using it or "Silvo" on a gold or silver finish. I've got some Haggerty polish for these finishes. How can "Brasso" do any harm?

 

[Hornlip]

No "Brasso for a brass sax? I don't get it. Is there something I don't understand here? I can see not using it or "Silvo" on a gold or silver finish. I've got some Haggerty polish for these finishes. How can "Brasso" do any harm?

I think people are missing that the horn is (I think) a bare brass horn. If it were silver or gold plated, or had a lacquer finish, you wouldn't want to use Brasso because it's pretty harsh. Not so much harm on bare brass, though once I had the whole thing polished and cleaned up I would try to use something more pleasant to work with if I intended to keep it shiny rather than let a patina build up.

 

[maddenma]

Brasso is abrasive and will make short work of a gold or silver finish. That said, it's the wrong color for a gold Buescher of that era and looks like bare brass to me. If you want it shiny and want it to stay that way, get it lightly buffed and lacquered. You could also get it plated, but that does involve some sensitive buffing. BTW, forget about a gold plating now, unless you're just loaded with cash and don't care.

There's lots of draw for a bare brass horn, and they are pretty rare as most bare brass horns appear to have been lacquered at some point in time in their lives. I wear a bare brass Buescher bari quite proudly (though it didn't start that way). People always ask about it because it's pretty unique and has the benefit of not having the measles that lacquered horns get over time (shiny spots amongst a mostly not shiny background).

 

[JL]

No "Brasso for a brass sax? I don't get it. Is there something I don't understand here? I can see not using it or "Silvo" on a gold or silver finish. I've got some Haggerty polish for these finishes. How can "Brasso" do any harm?

Brasso is a strong abrasive. It's fine for brass candlesticks and things like that. But you really don't want to take any more metal off your horn than necessary. You can get a good shine on brass with some less abrasive polishing compounds. I'm sure someone with a bare brass horn could advise you on what's best to use. I know it's not brasso.

To my eye that horn looks like it has some lacquer on it. I'm not sure it's bare brass. But we need some better photos to get a better look. Or maybe it's just the brasso polishing job that looks like lacquer? I think I see a lot of fine scratches on it.

 

[bruce bailey]

I will assume it is brass due to the brasso shining up the neck. If it was a gold plated horn, it would first scratch the gold and then you would see silver and lots of scratches.
I have no problem with brasso on bare metal. It does remove a very small amount of the metal but helps cut through scratches. Just be easy on the engraved areas. Once you get it smooth, use some metal polish like Wenol (red tube) which is a hardware store item or ebay. It will smooth that horn out and you will have a real winner. I even use #0000 ultra-fine steel wool (shop for really soft not home depot wool) for major rust removal. I have doen a lot or horns this way and the results are really nice. The downside is your hands will be gray and smell like old metal but worth it. I would question the seller but it may not be worth the trouble. I would much rather have a bare brass horn than a tatty lacquered one. On some of my gold plated/gold lacquered horns that have bad wear on a palm or pinky key, I will take it down to brass (#1000 then #2000 black wet emery paper) and polish to remove pitting. It will make an ugly horn look much better. I have even done this on bad inner bells to make them look like gold wash. Some photos where there is a Bb soprano with good GW and my fake job on a C soprano. Not perfect but most people will never notice it as most straight sopranos have been set down on the bell for years:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/tags/bell/

 

[saintsday]

Buescher also made saxophones in something that looked like satin gold but was actually some sort of lacquer or paint. I had a (late 1920s or early 30s) Buescher C-mel in that finish. It looked like gold in the ebay photos but when it arrived we could tell it wasn't real gold. >> Your horn looks like brass to me.

I'd like to see that. AFAIK, they didn't start lacquering until sometime in the NA era. They did use a matte gold lacquer in the 60's that at a quick glance might look like gold. I suspect that yours was done long after it was made.

 

[Hornlip]

I'd like to see that. AFAIK, they didn't start lacquering until sometime in the NA era. They did use a matte gold lacquer in the 60's that at a quick glance might look like gold. I suspect that yours was done long after it was made.

Buescher also made saxophones in something that looked like satin gold but was actually some sort of lacquer or paint. I had a (late 1920s or early 30s) Buescher C-mel in that finish. It looked like gold in the ebay photos but when it arrived we could tell it wasn't real gold. >> Your horn looks like brass to me.

Sometime in the 1930's Buescher started offering a "Gold" lacquer finish as an option, I've seen it in late '30's catalogs. That could be what he's talking about. I've got an old Buescher "Custom Built" trumpet that I think has the remnants of such a finish; it shows up best on the valve casings:



That horn's beat but it's never been buffed or refinished.

I know a brass player who has seen several trumpets with the gold lacquer finish, but this is the only horn I've ever seen that probably has it. Never seen a sax with it. Maybe it was more popular with brass players for some reason.