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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I wasn't sure where to to place this thread.I have been friends with George for over 40 years and I will be retiring soon from teaching school. George wants me to work for him and and help him in his shop. He does some amazing work and his redone horns very good players. some are spectacular players .He lets me try everything in his shop and wants me to work for him after I retire which will be very soon. Recently I play tested about 20 of his refurbished horns .some were monster players like a "the martin" ,buescher aristocrat,,yas 61s, king super 20,martin handcraft tenor.Even the student horns played really well.His horns come out beautiful .totally blinged out usually in silver plated with gold laquered keys.They are totally restored and look and play brand new in most cases.He has brass and winds like you wouldn't believe.parts for any horn! He also does custom work for people if they want their horns done a certain way.I will be involved in helping him sell his horns so if you are interested in any of them or custom work (mouthpiece replating)George is from Hungary originally and is a world class craftsman but yes he has some mispellings on his site but his work is very good. He also offers a money back policy if someone should not be thrilled with a horn they get from him.(better return policy then many dealers on this site)please contact me if interested in a particular (even if its all ready on ebay) . his daughter sells the horns on ebay as nikkibor as well as poppajohn the ebay seller.as you can see from the feedback everyone loved his stuff.
 

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jd, Congrats on the new job once you retire.
But please check your info regarding eBay because there is not much there for us to check.
'nikkibor' is no longer a registered user and was based in Germany.....

Rectangle Font Logo Paper product Brand

while pappajohn has had no feedback in over a year.....

Product Gesture Font Rectangle Technology

It also looks like the work done is more "customized" than restorations......
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?207491-What-the-heck-is-this-thing&p=2334612#post2334612

Just pointing out what I see, is that a fair assessment?
 

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I wasn't sure where to to place this thread.I have been friends with George for over 40 years and I will be retiring soon from teaching school. George wants me to work for him and and help him in his shop. He does some amazing work and his redone horns very good players. some are spectacular players .He lets me try everything in his shop and wants me to work for him after I retire which will be very soon. Recently I play tested about 20 of his refurbished horns .some were monster players like a "the martin" ,buescher aristocrat,,yas 61s, king super 20,martin handcraft tenor.Even the student horns played really well.His horns come out beautiful .totally blinged out usually in silver plated with gold laquered keys.They are totally restored and look and play brand new in most cases.He has brass and winds like you wouldn't believe.parts for any horn! He also does custom work for people if they want their horns done a certain way.I will be involved in helping him sell his horns so if you are interested in any of them or custom work (mouthpiece replating)George is from Hungary originally and is a world class craftsman but yes he has some mispellings on his site but his work is very good. He also offers a money back policy if someone should not be thrilled with a horn they get from him.(better return policy then many dealers on this site)please contact me if interested in a particular (even if its all ready on ebay) . his daughter sells the horns on ebay as nikkibor as well as poppajohn the ebay seller.as you can see from the feedback everyone loved his stuff.
Well, this could be a nice post-retirement gig for you. As for George, while it always looks like he does good refinish/restore jobs, I have to chime in here (and this is not a criticism of his 'blinging', which while finding some of it a bit untasteful, I do not find particularly offensive or sacrilegious myself) :

the shortcomings of his eBay listings go beyond being explained as an english-second-language thing.

In several instances, he actually misrepresents the horns and will evade admitting things such as the fact that the engraving is a contemporary replica of an original factory engraving. In some other instances, he has assembled "new" vintage horns from multiple parts of what were likely unrepairable horns of the same or similar model. I have spotted a few of these as well.

None of this, per se...is horrible. The fact that someone could have the ability and skill to actually do some of the Frankenhorns he has done, and make them look excellent and (ostensiby) perform as well as an original, is really laudable, IMHO. No sarcasm here, I mean this.

But....you gotta then represent it for what it is.

So this is where I am torn, here....

I mean, there was this Conn Low A baritone he had up once.....completely newly lacquered and all ~ and it had a nice, crisp Naked Lady engraving....and a body tube with a mid 40's Pan American serial number. The evasive semantics and dipsy-doodles he used in his communications with me made it clear he knew all of this, yet he was repeatedly offering it as the rarest of rarities ~ an actual, vintage, factory Naked Lady Low A (there was no such thing, ever; what it was was a Frankenhorn assembled from a Pan Am body tube and bow, with late 60's Conn 11M bellpieces and table keywork added to it, then the original non-Lady 60's engraving was removed and replaced with a replica Lady engraving; all refinished and overhauled).

In another instance he apparently sold someone a completely refurbed S20...with an altered, unoriginal neck of another manufacturer, unrepresented as such:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?182271-What-s-wrong-with-this-picture

So I feel this sorta stuff needs to be mentioned (as valid criticisms here on the Forum have been, before). Again, these sorta alterations and refurbs in and of themselves are not necessarily bad or anything....but it needs to be represented for what it is.

Impressive the stuff he does, and honestly I would love to have one of his re-do's come across my bench someday so I can examine things like the previous buffing and soldering and things like that (not to refute or criticize his work, but just to observe the craft).

But JD ~ since you are a friend of his, you might want to give him a hard sell on accurately representing his horns. He clearly has a love for his craft and perhaps a bit of a midas touch in bringing horns back to life, but a buyer needs to know these things.

Good luck in your new endeavor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
wow .I have been hearing a lot of this lately.I would not be part of any misrepresentation of anything.I am having second thoughts now about doing this .I agree it is terrible to omit facts and not disclose what the truth is. If this has been what has been going on I will not be a part of it.PERIOD. maybe I can find another job.....
 

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But....you gotta then represent it for what it is.

So this is where I am torn, here....
That is the most even-handed, respectful way you could have presented that - kudos.

It is possible that someone could help turn around his method, but only if he is willing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have decided I am not going to be part of this.No way.... I never knew this about his ads
 

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Don't let us talk you out of anything. You were excited about the opportunity when you started this thread. George does great work and I'm sure he can teach you a lot. Does he deliberately misrepresent his horns? I don't know. Until a month ago my main tenor was a George Borodi special that I bought from Rob Dorsey. I knew what I was getting when I bought it. The horn was a 1931 Conn, silver body with gold plated keys. It was a thing of beauty and a monster player. I did not buy it as a collectors piece and Rob did not sell it as such. Rob was honest with me. The horn was a worn out piece of junk that Rob bought on ebay and sent to George to be refurbished. If it was a car we would've called it a resto-mod. When I bought it it was essentially a brand new 1931 Conn with a little extra bling. I played the snot out of that thing over the past couple of years and it made me a fair amount of money along the way. My only complaint was that it was too nice. I spent too much time polishing it and minding the flies off it. In all the time I owned it I took it to my tech one time for some minor adjustments. He never heard of George Borodi but was very impressed with his work. About a month ago I decided to buy a new tenor and put that one away for special occasions. I had played an outdoor show and got caught out in the rain and decided that horn just wasn't what I needed for a main gigging axe. Rob had a brand new Phil Barone Classic and my intention was to buy that and keep the Conn. When I went to Rob's place to buy the Barone he commented that he regretted ever selling me the Conn. He wished he still had it in his personal collection. I told him to make me an offer I couldn't refuse and he did. He traded me straight up for a super nice Yamaha Custom 875 (which I love to death by the way).

Of course, as I say, I bought that Conn for a player and was fully aware of its lack of collectors value. In fact, I paid Rob more than it was really worth on the collectors market and did so willingly because the thing was just so much fun to play. I had no intention of ever selling it so it really didn't matter to me. And, again, Rob was completely honest with me. Had I been a novice saxophone investor buying the horn on ebay I would probably have been really pissed when I figured out I had overpaid for a frankenhorn. George needs to fully disclose what he is selling and price his stuff accordingly.
 

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I think the consensus is that George is not fully disclosing ALL the work done to the instruments he works on.
But I would say that the consensus is also that JD work at George's shop and to show George the bad PR related to this business model.

It sounds like JD is an honest man that could not put with this.
I am sorry he has decided not to work at a place he would undoubtedly love to work at, but I applaud his honesty & moral character that prevents this.
 

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I have decided I am not going to be part of this.No way.... I never knew this about his ads
That would be one solution, JD. But honestly, another might be

It is possible that someone could help turn around his method, but only if he is willing.
This.

I mean, given you have known the guy for a while and have this opportunity to work with him, perhaps that sorta relationship can help slowly sway him towards more accurate representation in any horns which he does use other parts for, or whatever.

It is one thing for a prospective eFlay bidder to bring it up (which can be construed as trying to start an argument and puts the seller in a defensive dynamic right off the bat), but it is another for someone he has known for a while, and now works in his shop.... to actually mention it in person, when the right opportunity comes of course.

It may be a more fruitful path...just sayin'.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
thanks guys ...I in no way want to be part of this.It goes against everything that I am about. I will just try to play more gigs or look at some other opportunities .thanks for the vote of confidence guys.appreciate your insights .It would have been a big mistake
 

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For the record, this just shows (again) that JD is a stand up guy. I've had one deal with him since being on the forum. It was a mouthpiece trade and it came off without a hitch. The piece was exactly as described (as was mine). I'd never hesitate to deal with him again.
 

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well, I respect JD鈥檚 decision not to be part of this, although something could be said for changing things from inside.

Borodi comes up often when talking with Tim Brennan here in the NL. Tim is also a sax technician and a native of Cleveland and for years was a scout, buying horns, especially in the 鈥80, for Matthews a Dutch shop run by another American, David Crane.

He has come across George Borodi many times.

Nobody says anything bad about the technical capabilities but this is a shop where a relict of a saxophone comes in from one side and a better than new instrument gets out on the other.

Which if you ask me is often what you see happening in SOME of these car shows on Discovery.

Often times they start with the relict of a car , found in some barn somewhere, then they strip off anything that is remotely original in the car and then they start rebuilding the car upgrading the engine with one that car had never seen before ( always bigger, bigger is better!) and providing all sorts of improvements like a larger wheel base ( wihch also calls for new tires and rims that are completely incoherent to that model of a car).

The result is a beautiful, shiny fabrication of the mind worth, in the eyes of the true collector, absolutely nothing, despite all the money and work which were poured into them.

There is certainly something to be said in favor of this approach but there is no doubt that it is an approach completely disrespectful of the integrity of the object that they are dealing with.

The ads are dictated by the fact that disclosing all it has happened to that horn would certainly chase away a certain type of buyer and that鈥檚 why they are, knowingly and willingly, unclear about what it is that these mishmash are.

If they showed the horn in the state it was when they too it in and all what happened to it and the result when it came out, they might still appeal to some buyers despite everything and they would have been honest and open which they most certainly are NOT.

Someone I know here recently bought a, better than new, silverplate body and gold keys King Super 20. He is very happy with it. Who am I to tell him that he has been conned because there is never been such a Super 20 model?
 

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........Someone I know here recently bought a, better than new, silverplate body and gold keys King Super 20. He is very happy with it. Who am I to tell him that he has been conned because there is never been such a Super 20 model?
Do you know if the sax was represented as an original or 'custom' S20??

I personally would have no issues buying a "Frankensax" if it was presented that way and Amanda loved the way it played.
Would I pay as much as an original of the same sax that played just as well......no. But the difference would probably not be great.

Some can only see short term profits & not long term growth. Seems common in today's business model.
JMHO
 

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I don鈥檛 know for sure, but he bought it on ebay.......and we know the kind of information disclosure there
 

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I personally would have no issues buying a "Frankensax" if it was presented that way and Amanda loved the way it played.
Would I pay as much as an original of the same sax that played just as well......no. But the difference would probably not be great.

Some can only see short term profits & not long term growth. Seems common in today's business model.
JMHO
Likewise, I thought the notion of reclaiming the body of a PanAm and turning it into an 11M Low A was, again in and of itself, interestingly attractive (yes, even the new Naked Lady aspect, thrown in for Irony) and again, sorta impressive from a tech rebuild standpoint.

If they showed the horn in the state it was when they took it in, and all what happened to it, and the result when it came out, they might still appeal to some buyers despite everything and they would have been honest and open (which they most certainly are NOT).
Yes, and really ~ they would not even have had to gone THAT far, IMHO. Simply stating something like: "we took a PanAm/12M body and combined it with an 11M bellpiece and table, then refinished the entire horn and for fun, added a replica Naked Lady engraving done by the very good engraver XXXX"....

...I would have thought "dude...that is so trippy, if it plays well that could actually be sort of a cool instrument". I could see this appealing to a fair number of people.
I could see certain people actually owning this with some pride and saying "check out what this tech in Cleveland created out of these 2 old Conns ! Plays like a mutha, too ! ".

But again, he wasn't selling/representing it as such.

And you hit on it regarding price, Augie. He wasn't pricing it as such, either. He had it priced way beyond what such a project would be worth, even completely overhauled.
The price was more in line with what a very rare, factory original, completely overhauled, would go for. It was almost double of what a cherry 11M or 12M, original lacq, would go for. Now, I could see it being priced a bit more than the latter two, because it was custom-built, in a sense...but still not anywhere near what the auction price was.

So that's what needs to be addressed.

Again, I also completely understand JD's morals on this. Just wanna reiterate, my intention was not, as Jeff said, to 'talk anyone out of anything'. I was just inserting my experiences/observations as perhaps something which could be addressed, somehow.
 

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I would love to have something like that franken 11M, but would want to know exactly what it is. Why is that difficult?
 
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