[SimonJazzSax]

I honestly didn't know what to title this thread, but I wanted to start it for fun I haven't seen anything like it and I think some good conversation could happen. So here is the premise. I have been lucky enough / in the position to play and own thousands of vintage saxes and mouthpieces. Not only was I a crazy history nerd about sax gear for years, but I got hired at Tenor Madness 3 years ago as the vintage guy (this position has shifted to a broader scope). Duties include working with all the players that come through, breaking in and testing all the repairs and overhauls, playing all mouthpieces that come into the shop for sale or for refacing, and obtaining vintage gear to buy and sell. There are other things, but that's the gist.

Playing gear and other people's saxophones / mouthpieces has been a job for me! Which is cool in and of itself and fits me well because I like playing sax alot

I am always learning, and by no means think I know everything. The following is only my personal opinion on the gear and I'm amazed at how much info, history, and perspective I learn and gather on a daily basis through work. It helps to be around a team that has a lot of collective knowledge as well.

So let's get a Q&A going! It can be about anything really. A personal question pertaining to my favs or thoughts or more technical. I'll list stuff I've played extensively to get guys thinking

Selmers - Every Vintage from every serial number. Thousands of them. LoL. I have very specific thoughts on serial ranges, mouthpiece pairings, favorites, weird anomalies and the list goes on.

Kings - zephyr specials, super 20s, silversonics, silversonic full pearls. Not as many as Selmers, but a lot.

Conns - every "M" you can name in just about every serial number possible. I've seen some really cool Conns. 30M is still my favorite

Otto Links - man oh man, where do I start. I love these things. Probably the one thing I've played the most of is every kind of Link possible. I've owned hundreds of vintage ones and I've played thousands. They come through the shop almost daily at times and I always play them!

Brilharts - while I don't live them as much as Links, I've had my flings and played just as many.

Bergs - Same as above

There's more, but that should get us started. I hope we can have some fun! Feel free to chime in with anything really. I expect I'll probably learn a lot myself from this thread.

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[TomOhio]

I like your idea for this thread Simon!

Conns - every "M" you can name in just about every serial number possible. I've seen some really cool Conns. 30M is still my favorite

I have a 30M, along with a Tenor Madness TM Custom I bought used a couple years ago. I've primarily played the TM horn since I bought it, and the Conn only every once in a while. However, the TM horn recently had some regulating material fall off, which I can't fix myself. As a result, I've been playing the Conn, since the music stores here are temporarily closed because of Covid-19 restrictions. The 30M is definitely not a museum piece due to lacquer wear, and more significantly, I don't have the original neck. I knew that when I bought it, and the price reflected the non-original neck. I'm pretty sure the neck that came with it is from a 16M.

I'm pretty intrigued by the Conn again after playing it in the couple months I've been home bound. The regulation on the horn is good, I can subtone all the way to low Bb easily, and it's fun to play. I think the keywork is much more easy to adjust to compared to 10M's I've tried. I really like the TM Custom, but comparing the two, the TM seems heavier than the Conn, and there's a lot more key noise on the TM. I'm guessing that some of the noise could be corrected by a tech.

The Conn has a compelling sound, but I think not as 'big' as the TM Custom. That's probably the reason I've played the TM in favor of the Conn. So here are my questions on the Conn:

1. Somebody suggested to me that the action is too low, and that's why the sound doesn't seem 'big'. Are there any published guidelines on what the key heights should be?

2. I've wondered if the 16M neck is limiting the full potential of my 30M. I normally wouldn't worry about necks, but I've never owned a horn with a non-original neck. I don't think there are an abundance of used Conn necks to try, and if I did, it could turn out to be an expensive experiment. Some of the aftermarket necks are reputed to be excellent, but way more than I'd be able or willing to spend. Should I consider sending the 16M neck to a specialist to evaluate? Maybe there are issues with the neck that I'm unaware of, but then again maybe there's nothing wrong with it. I don't want to fix what might not be broken.

 

[Govinda]

I have been looking to purchase a Balanced Action Tenor

Are there certain serial ranges associated with a particular sound?
My biggest fear is purchasing a BA that is overly dark and does not project. I do not have much of a chance to try a BA for purchase out in person

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Re: Gear Life - Q&A - Focus on Vintage Horns and Mouthpieces

I like your idea for this thread Simon!
1. Somebody suggested to me that the action is too low, and that's why the sound doesn't seem 'big'. Are there any published guidelines on what the key heights should be?

2. I've wondered if the 16M neck is limiting the full potential of my 30M. I normally wouldn't worry about necks, but I've never owned a horn with a non-original neck. I don't think there are an abundance of used Conn necks to try, and if I did, it could turn out to be an expensive experiment. Some of the aftermarket necks are reputed to be excellent, but way more than I'd be able or willing to spend. Should I consider sending the 16M neck to a specialist to evaluate? Maybe there are issues with the neck that I'm unaware of, but then again maybe there's nothing wrong with it. I don't want to fix what might not be broken.

Glad you like the idea, I thought it would be fun. I'll answer below with my thoughts.

1) Key heights can have an effect on the size of the sound, sure. They affect a lot on the saxophone actually including intonation and overall resistance level as well. Correct key heights are going to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and will have a lot to do with tone hole size, post height etc. With Conns you do want them fairly open, yes. The stacks are going to be around 7mm (left hand) and 9mm (right hand) give or take on a Conn Tenor. Sometimes we'll set it up at 10mm in the right hand. The bell keys we'll make sure are WIDE open on them and the rule of thumb (haha pun intended) is that you should be able to put your finger in there easily. Ultimately key heights are very important when it comes to setup and you should make sure someone that knows these horns sets it up right if you want to get the most out of it. Other things that I find that are common on these that hurt the performance include: mistimed Eb trill and a very leaky neck :/ Yours probably suffers from this due to the mismatch, which segues nicely into your next question.

2) I couldn't say that the neck is limiting the full potential as it could be a fantastic neck, but I will make a couple points about it. First off, it won't be like a "real" 30M ever without a 30M neck and that has to do with the design of the 30M neck especially the amount of mass on there! But this doesn't mean it isn't good. What you are probably suffering from is a leaky tenon receiver fit. This is SUPER common on all vintage horns, especially ones that have 2nd hand necks that were never designed for them in the first place. I'd say that 8 out of 10 vintage horns of all brands need significant neck fitting and sealing when they come in for an overhaul. I wouldn't personally waste my time with aftermarkets on this model. See if you can ever snag a 30M neck one day, but the 16M will be fine if it's setup right. A great 10M neck would work as well!

Last comment, yes, the TM is heavier than the Conn due to construction and other things. Although the 30Ms are heavier than the 10M by a bit. The 10M is a light horn!

 

[rcpayne]

Is it true that on the vintage Conns that have been gold plated with some of the gold burnished and some that isn't that this effect of the non-burnished gold is achieved by sand blasting?
I can't picture how that would work yet when I've done searches they all seem to say the same thing, that it's done with sandblasting. I'm just curious, not a big deal. I've wondered if it just was a different method of plating.

 

[SimonJazzSax]

I have been looking to purchase a Balanced Action Tenor

Are there certain serial ranges associated with a particular sound?
My biggest fear is purchasing a BA that is overly dark and does not project. I do not have much of a chance to try a BA for purchase out in person

Great question! I absolutely LOOOOVE Selmer Balanced Actions. So much that I own one and have wanted one for a long time! I searched for just the right one and snagged it

Serial range ... All of them are great, but I'd say that the best BA's I've played over the years fall in between 27,xxx and 29,9xx. Selmer was changing designs on these quite a bit, especially ergonomically and with the mechanisms. By 27xxx you have the "full fledged" BA minus the octave pip that changed around 29xxx. I happen to like the bigger pip or even the tea kettle necks better though. So if I were picking off of serial number alone, I'd say somewhere between 27,5xx and 28,7xx would be my go to!

Now lets talk about the MOST important thing when buying a BA or any vintage saxophone for that matter.

1) You want a horn that has been beat up less. They all have been beat up some, or most of them have, but there are certain areas that can cause issues. You don't want a horn that has had extensive amounts of dent work (unless you've played it and liked it) especially on the bottom bow and neck. Look for something that is structurally clean and has led a mildly traumatic life.

2) Setup and mechanical condition is EVERYTHING. I can't tell you the number of times these horns come in and people want to sell them thinking it's a dog and all it needs is an overhaul and good setup. I talk them into trying that instead of buying a new horn and they get their horn back and can't believe how good it is. These horns simply need a good set of pads, resos and a person to set it up that actually knows what they are doing and they will come alive! So make sure when shopping that if it hasn't been overhauled, you factor that into the price as a possibility. At the very least, a full setup by a desired tech would be needed. If it is advertised as overhauled, repadded, or setup already, get the info on who did it. Chances are it's not well done unfortunately. There are a number of good techs out there that are capable of great work, but most of the time people just don't want to spend the money to have it done right.

3) Originals are darker than relacquers in my experience. Don't discount a good relacquer. All the best BA's I've played have been reacquired! Probably because there is a larger pool of them around. Originals have a darker huskier sound and the relacquers a little more pop and punch. My personal BA is re-lacquered and it has NO problem cutting and playing loud with a huge sound.

I hope this helps!

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Is it true that on the vintage Conns that have been gold plated with some of the gold burnished and some that isn't that this effect of the non-burnished gold is achieved by sand blasting?
I can't picture how that would work yet when I've done searches they all seem to say the same thing, that it's done with sandblasting. I'm just curious, not a big deal. I've wondered if it just was a different method of plating.

From what Randy has told me and I've learned from others ... The "matte" finish you see on gold and silver conns was indeed from sandblasting. You plate the whole thing and mask off the area you want to stay shiny and burnished and sand blast saxophone. When you take the "taped or masked" area off it will have remained burnished and shiny and the rest will be matte

 

[Tenor Mattness]

Hey, Simon. What are you thoughts on resonators? What kind and size preference do you have on various horns, specifically with vintage Selmers? Also, any chance you have a database on the original reso sizes for each key for various manufacturers? (Selmer, King, Conn, etc...)

 

[Stretch]

Love this thread Simon! What type of resonators do you recommend for an Eastlake Silversonic tenor. Currently, my horn has nylon resos but I am wondering what it would be like with oversized metal resos? Flat or domed ones would be another question? My personal experience is that oversized resos that give some extra punch that one could back off of if required, are better than the undersized resos like the Conn reso pads I had on a couple of vintage Conns that I don't own anymore.

 

[rcpayne]

From what Randy has told me and I've learned from others ... The "matte" finish you see on gold and silver conns was indeed from sandblasting. You plate the whole thing and mask off the area you want to stay shiny and burnished and sand blast saxophone. When you take the "taped or masked" area off it will have remained burnished and shiny and the rest will be matte

Thanks for the answer!

 

[TomOhio]

Glad you like the idea, I thought it would be fun. I'll answer below with my thoughts.

Thanks for your reply Simon. That's helpful information. I checked the key heights on the Conn, and they're right around 7mm and 9mm. In the zone you mentioned. The Bb bell key felt is about as thin as it can go, the B could open just a bit more. The neck tenon diameter with my cheapo caliper was consistent within about 0.1 mm. The neck won't move when I tighten the neck screw. Maybe there's more to it than that though. I did once have a Martin that I thought had a good neck fit, but the horn sounded and responded better when I put thin tape on the tenon.

I did a belt and suspenders fix to the TM regulation issue this afternoon and got it to play reasonably well, so I played the Conn and TM side by side. I think possibly what I've perceived as a less of a 'big' sound on the Conn vs the TM might actually be more related to different sound character between the two. The Conn is darker and more spread, and the TM gives me a bit more brightness and more focus. I found some side by side recordings to compare the two horns a couple years ago, and I when I listen to those I don't hear as much difference compared to what I hear from behind the horns when I'm playing them.

Like many other things in life, I may be overthinking this.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Hey, Simon. What are you thoughts on resonators? What kind and size preference do you have on various horns, specifically with vintage Selmers? Also, any chance you have a database on the original reso sizes for each key for various manufacturers? (Selmer, King, Conn, etc...)

Hey, Simon. What are you thoughts on resonators? What kind and size preference do you have on various horns, specifically with vintage Selmers? Also, any chance you have a database on the original reso sizes for each key for various manufacturers? (Selmer, King, Conn, etc...)

Good question! We have experimented with resos a good bit at the shop, even trying the same horn on both metal and plastic! Ultimately reso choice is personal and should be decided based off of sound preference, musical style, mouthpiece etc. I change what I recommend based on what direction sonically I know the customer wants to go. I'll put my thoughts on each below and even list my favorite combos

Domed or Flat - I have never been able to notice a difference honestly! So it really comes down to cosmetics.

Metal or Plastic - Definitely a large difference here. Metals tend to have a fast poppy response with nice even frequencies (highs, mids and lows) in the core. Plastics respond well, but don't quite have the same pop up front (good and bad, more on that in a second), and have more mids, slightly more lows and less highs than metals. Metals, if oversized too much, can get splatty on the front end for me. They also tend to have a more spread core than plastics. Plastics have a tighter core with more "color" for me. All these are generalizations, but I find them true on most horns. The best choice is usually dependent upon what the horn model is as well as what you want to achieve.

Sizing - Again, a HUGE difference. Too small and your sound is going to be much darker and perceived as huskier. Too large and the sound gets really splatty in general. I think certain horns work better with oversized and others with undersized.

For fun, here are my favorite reso types in horns the term normal is used as an in between for small and oversized. It's what many techs default to now a days as it works well for the tone hole size. Those sizes do differ from model to model due to tone hole sizes as well.

Radio Improved - "normal sized" plastics
Balanced Action - "normal sized" plastics
SBA - "normal sized" plastics, but oversized metals are really cool too.
5 digit VI's - Oversized metal up to 82xxx or so.
all other VI's - "normal sized" plastics

King Super 20's - normal sized metals ... if you want something just off the wall then oversized, but it can be a lot
Zephyrs - normal sized metals

Conns - smaller sized metals , but normal works well.

Martins - smaller plastics

Last answer, yes we have a reso bible (as we call it). Thomas at the shop, along with Jordy, have been working on it for about 10 years. It has the sizes of every sax. If we don't have the sizes, we get the tech to send the tone hole sizes and add it to the literature. Most of the time due to modern playing demands, the older rivet style horns like BA's and smaller metal reso sets like the kings aren't what guys want, so we go to the "normal" size.

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Love this thread Simon! What type of resonators do you recommend for an Eastlake Silversonic tenor. Currently, my horn has nylon resos but I am wondering what it would be like with oversized metal resos? Flat or domed ones would be another question? My personal experience is that oversized resos that give some extra punch that one could back off of if required, are better than the undersized resos like the Conn reso pads I had on a couple of vintage Conns that I don't own anymore.

Good question ... personal choice. See my post above for thoughts on resos and let me know if you need some more clarification!

 

[zxcvbnm]

Awesome thread! I have a few questions.

If you're play-testing saxes that don't have new overhauls, and might range from having a few leaks to never been worked on in 60 years, how do you know whether it's gonna be a good horn or not?

Have you noticed any sound differences from finishes such as lacquer, silver plate, gold plate? Are replated horns brighter than original like relacquered ones are?

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Awesome thread! I have a few questions.

If you're play-testing saxes that don't have new overhauls, and might range from having a few leaks to never been worked on in 60 years, how do you know whether it's gonna be a good horn or not?

Have you noticed any sound differences from finishes such as lacquer, silver plate, gold plate? Are replated horns brighter than original like relacquered ones are?

Awesome thread! I have a few questions.

If you're play-testing saxes that don't have new overhauls, and might range from having a few leaks to never been worked on in 60 years, how do you know whether it's gonna be a good horn or not?

Have you noticed any sound differences from finishes such as lacquer, silver plate, gold plate? Are replated horns brighter than original like relacquered ones are?

Those are some good questions!

1) When I first started playing horns that really needed overhauls, I honestly couldn't tell, but over the years I started getting a feel for things and learned a lot about what actually makes horns really good. The biggest thing I've learned is that 90% of vintage Selmers (Supers, BAs, SBAs, VIs and even VIIs), King Super 20s (up until mid eastlake run), Conns (up until the early 60's) are all fantastic horns if they are good specimens and are overhauled and setup by a world class tech. Good specimens means, fairly clean neck and body tube and not a lot of past damage to the bore or tone holes etc. That leaves 5% that are just "meh" for one reason or other that we can't put our finger on, and 5% that are just insanely incredible for no known reason either. I mean, these saxophones were made in the golden age of saxophone manufacturing with lots of hand working and hand assembly from skilled craftsmen. There is a reason they have the reputation they do and are highly sought after. Probably not the answer you expected of how we judge how good a horn can be, but it holds true and is reliable! Ok, now to playing horns that need an overhaul that I get that special feeling about. I can't really explain that unfortunately, but after being in this business (in some capacity) for 10 years now and playing so many horns pre and post overhaul that you just get a feel for what they will turn out like. I picked out both of my vintage Selmers when they needed an overhaul and love them.

2) Yes ... finishes have what I would call generalizations for me. This becomes hotly debated I know, but this is my take after playing them all many times over.

Lacquer - Well balanced with a nice presence of lows, mids and highs. more core than unlacquered, but with a rounded core sound. 2nd most free blowing.

Unlacquered - edgier and more "rippy" than a Lacquered horn. Less highs and more mids. Has a more spread core with more buzz. Most free blowing of horns.

Silver Plated - these are always darker with a big boomy sound and a really big core. Plated horns have a different color than lacquer. Less highs for sure and a big thick lush sound. They also tend to be a hair more resistant than lacquered horns and can be pushed harder. Nice and powerful usually too.

Gold Plated - Similar to Silver Plating, but a little more color to the sound with some more highs present for me. I prefer gold to silver most of the time.

Re-lacquered vs Re-plated - I have only played a few horns pre and post relacquer, but having played a bunch of relacquers, I can tell you they also have a vibe. Generally a relacquer has a slightly "brighter" sound and has more rip and pop to it. Sometimes I really really like this, but if the horn has been buffed really heavily and they've taken off too much metal, then it can get an anemic sound that looses it's core and becomes too free blowing unfortunately. There's a good balance with relacquers that I think makes them great if it's reached! I've never played a horn pre and post re-plate ... BUT I've played quite a few re-plated VIs and SBAs in my day. One of the BEST saxophones I've ever played was a 71xxx gold plated (converted from lacquer). Super colorful with tons of power and core. So unfortunately I can't say what the difference is horns that are re-plated

 

[zxcvbnm]

Finish affecting sound is indeed a hotly debated topic but if you've played thousands of horns you're one of the few people that can actually settle the debate. Thanks for your great reply!

Is there anything consistent you've found about that 5% of amazing horns? Any good way to identify them?

Also do you think factory silver or gold plated horns were selected to be better than lacquered horns?

 

[Tenor Mattness]

Is there anything consistent you've found about that 5% of amazing horns? Any good way to identify them?

Perhaps that they're all for sale with a fancy spiel and the word "killer" or phrase "this is the best horn I've ever played" somewhere in the description???

 

[zxcvbnm]

Perhaps that they're all for sale with a fancy spiel and the word "killer" or phrase "this is the best horn I've ever played" somewhere in the description???

Haha if only...

 

[jman1977]

Good question! We have experimented with resos a good bit at the shop, even trying the same horn on both metal and plastic! Ultimately reso choice is personal and should be decided based off of sound preference, musical style, mouthpiece etc. I change what I recommend based on what direction sonically I know the customer wants to go. I'll put my thoughts on each below and even list my favorite combos

Domed or Flat - I have never been able to notice a difference honestly! So it really comes down to cosmetics.

Metal or Plastic - Definitely a large difference here. Metals tend to have a fast poppy response with nice even frequencies (highs, mids and lows) in the core. Plastics respond well, but don't quite have the same pop up front (good and bad, more on that in a second), and have more mids, slightly more lows and less highs than metals. Metals, if oversized too much, can get splatty on the front end for me. They also tend to have a more spread core than plastics. Plastics have a tighter core with more "color" for me. All these are generalizations, but I find them true on most horns. The best choice is usually dependent upon what the horn model is as well as what you want to achieve.

Sizing - Again, a HUGE difference. Too small and your sound is going to be much darker and perceived as huskier. Too large and the sound gets really splatty in general. I think certain horns work better with oversized and others with undersized.

For fun, here are my favorite reso types in horns the term normal is used as an in between for small and oversized. It's what many techs default to now a days as it works well for the tone hole size. Those sizes do differ from model to model due to tone hole sizes as well.

Radio Improved - "normal sized" plastics
Balanced Action - "normal sized" plastics
SBA - "normal sized" plastics, but oversized metals are really cool too.
5 digit VI's - Oversized metal up to 82xxx or so.
all other VI's - "normal sized" plastics

King Super 20's - normal sized metals ... if you want something just off the wall then oversized, but it can be a lot
Zephyrs - normal sized metals

Conns - smaller sized metals , but normal works well.

Martins - smaller plastics

Last answer, yes we have a reso bible (as we call it). Thomas at the shop, along with Jordy, have been working on it for about 10 years. It has the sizes of every sax. If we don't have the sizes, we get the tech to send the tone hole sizes and add it to the literature. Most of the time due to modern playing demands, the older rivet style horns like BA's and smaller metal reso sets like the kings aren't what guys want, so we go to the "normal" size.

I'm very interested in further exposition on this observation as it seems to contradict this study (which found that while there appears to be a difference between pads with resonators and pads without, there does not appear to be any perceptible difference between metal and plastic resonators):

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/caml/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=publications:isma2014_eveno.pdf

 

[SimonJazzSax]

I'm very interested in further exposition on this observation as it seems to contradict this study (which found that while there appears to be a difference between pads with resonators and pads without, there does not appear to be any perceptible difference between metal and plastic resonators):

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/caml/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=publications:isma2014_eveno.pdf

Ya. I realize a lot of what we talk about is hotly debated and lots of people may say there is no difference or you can't tell etc.

I can say a few things about it, but ultimately it will always remain debated I'm sure.

1) I think when you end up in a situation that involves nitpicking the nuances of horns and playing them everyday all the time, you develop a sensitivity that many people don't have. Not making me better than anyone, it's just different. I have the opportunity to do what most do not and for years have done so.

2) I can also say that size of resonators does matter more than material! For sure. There is a much more noticeable difference when you oversize than the difference between metal and plastic.

3) When it comes to metal vs plastics, I definitely notice a difference on 2 main things. We are assuming same size resos of course. First is the way the note first responds or the initial articulation and attack. Metal has a different front end. Second is in the core sound that has a slight bit of different color. More mid heavy on plastics.

That about covers it. I must admit, I haven't read the McGill study yet, but I will. I wanted to answer before I read it actually. Didn't want it to influence my thoughts. But if I have a note or thought from it, I'll update with an asterisk below this sentence

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