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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Got my Allora alto yesterday, its everything I'd hoped for, just wonderful. However I do have a question for you experienced B&Sers out there

Can someone explain what the seesaw mechanism on the G# is supposed to do and how its supposed to be adjusted. When it arrived both adjustment screws (A and B) were backed out so they were not really contacting anything.



Is this some sort of anti-stick thing for the G#, like a kielwerth, I found an old thread that mentioned this was a helper mechanism to stop it sticking...but dont really see how it would work or how to properly adjust it to get one spring to play off against the other. I guess I need to take a much closer look at it.

Or is it supposed to be set up so screw B is contacting the cup below the G# tone hole to moderate the intonation or something....so that as the G# cup lifts the teeter-totter pushes down a little on the next (open) cup down? Is that all its there for?

Hope this isnt too dumb, any light in the darkness is appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
On further digging I suspect its a relative of the Kielwerth nostick G# mechanism as reviewed by Stephen Howard here

An unusual addition is a lever that extends from the G# actuating arm, across the G# key cup and onto the Aux.F key cup. I was somewhat confused as to the function of this key, but after having seen a number of Keilwerths I've finally sussed it out.
It's supposed to be a mechanism that prevents the G# key cup from sticking. How it does this is rather nifty.
In normal use, and with a working G#, the arm does nothing at all - but should the G# stick, the lever pivots on the stuck G# key cup and makes contact with the Aux.F key cup. Once it does this it tries to force the Aux.F key down - in effect using the spring of that key to boost that on the G# key cup and supplying the upward force at the pivot of the lever.
It works, but in spite of setting the lever up correctly I found there was a slight delay before the G# cup came unstuck.
Still, a 'late' G# will be better than no G# at all
So it needs to be adjusted so its in contact with both the G# activating key and the aux F cup. Correct me if Im wrong.

I might need to firm up the spring opening the aux F cup, otherwise it might just drop that cup down a bit if the G# sticks, rather than pushing the G# up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Reedsplinter said:
So this see-saw levers the G# key up, preventing sticking?

Interesting.
Correct, the raising action of the G# lever sort of pushes against the spring power for the aux F cup to raise the cup if the G# mechanism spring is not enough to open it on its own.

If the pad doesnt stick it doesnt do anything but ride up and down, but if it does stick the extra force kicks in to free it.

If its REALY stuck...like welded down, the see saw will just go the other way and push the aux F cup down I think, but it would have to be stuck enough to overpower that spring too, which I cant imagine happening.

Its pretty ingenious as I know there has been the occasional time when the G# has stuck on my selmer clone at inopportune moments.

Im surprised the clone makers have not incorporated it... I wonder when we will see this on a Kessler or Barone horn;)
 

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Seems strange to me that ALL sax manufacturers don't incorporate some version of this; I've never played a sax on which the G# key didn't stick at some time or other.

Goodson horns are described as having an anti-stick mechanism on the G# key; do they use this method, or some other?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Reedsplinter said:
Seems strange to me that ALL sax manufacturers don't incorporate some version of this; I've never played a sax on which the G# key didn't stick at some time or other.

Goodson horns are described as having an anti-stick mechanism on the G# key; do they use this method, or some other?
I dont know, perhaps it patented, although I cant imagine that would stop a clone maker, or prevent someone finding a way around it.

Which voldermort horns have it? It occured to me that he might have something similar, but a quick google didnt find anything.

I guess the downside if there is one is the additional weight and intertia of the mechanism, but I'm sold on the idea now its adjusted correctly.
 

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He who shall not be named has been touting this feature for awhile; the new high-end Saxgourmet axes have it for sure. I haven't seen these close up so I don't know whether it's the seesaw mechanism or some other approach to the same problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Reedsplinter said:
He who shall not be named has been touting this feature for awhile; the new high-end Saxgourmet axes have it for sure. I haven't seen these close up so I don't know whether it's the seesaw mechanism or some other approach to the same problem.
Couldnt see anything like it on the sites a quick google threw up.

Stephen Howard to the rescue again...this is regarding the Unison iteration of the SG brand...

I was delighted to see a leaf-sprung G# arm. This is an old but simple and very effective way of tackling the perennial sticky G# problem. It comprises only the addition of a thin flat spring fitted to the G# operating arm. The arms sits over the G# cup lever and the spring wraps itself underneath the lever. In the event of the G# pad sticking, the arm rises as per usual and brings the flat spring into play. This gives the arm a bit of extra 'kick', and thus lifts the sticky pad off.
It's simple, elegant and cheap to fit ( and has been a popular modification since at least the 1960's ) - and makes Keilwerth's overly complicated anti-stick G# mechanism look positively Heath-Robinson.
It's a wonder that other manufacturers don't fit this modification, the only drawback to it is that it makes the bell key mechanism fractionally heavier in use, as the flat spring comes into play when the G# cup is held down by the right hand stack and the bells keys are in use...but that's a very small price to pay for the sheer convenience of not having to worry about a sticky G#.
Basically the same as the B&S approach to keeping the low C# unstuck?

For that there is a secondary flat plate spring over the top of the release mechanism that stops the cup lever parting company with the rod lever as it lifts up. Might be a bit more friction this way though as its in contact with the key all the time as far as I can tell.
 
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