[bariman2sing]

What tools do you use to bring the plane angle of the hinge side (west) lower to tone hole at the back without undue damage/stress to the key cu/tone hole.

Question - arises key bending/moving post or shimming with card board type

Observation notes:
Checked - the key cup is healthy level on anvil.

The tonehole wall of the hinge(west) side is slightly not level and lower close to the rib plate. I have raised the tonehole wall of the east opposite side.

Dry fit with new pad reveal about .60mm and more space at the west tone hole.

This is a Mk7 Alto which is going to be fitted with MMedic roos and past dent around the G#/F# area of the body which is straighten somewhat.

Also the bottom stack D key cup and tone hole plane is way out with same situation.

Thanks for your insightful replies.

 

[simso]

Little bit lost

Assumption G# key is hinged from the right hand side, cant remember exactly

If pad leaks

on hinge side then the pad is too thin replace with thicker pad
opposite hinge side then the pad is too thick
Upper stack side leak, key needs to be bent down on top of key
Lower stack side leak key needs to be bent down on bottom of key

If you dont want to use thicker thinner pads then possibly backed up with a shim, but bending key spine to reshape geometry is better

Tools, just a popsicle stick is fine, I however have pad slicks that I use shaped to all angles sizes for access situations

 

[jbtsax]

What tools do you use to bring the plane angle of the hinge side (west) lower to tone hole at the back without undue damage/stress to the key cu/tone hole.

Question - arises key bending/moving post or shimming with card board type.

I am a bit confused by all of the information posted so I will just answer the parts of the question quoted.

To bend keys from side to side to bring them parallel to the tonehole, I use a wooden craft stick (like a jumbo popsicle stick) under the side opposite the side that needs to be bent down and press down on the key with my fingers. Oftentimes I will take it a bit too far and then bend back slightly doing the reverse.

The more difficult task sometimes can be to bend the key from front to back without distorting the keycup. If the back is too high I will put my craft stick between the front of the key cup and the tone hole and tap a wooden dowel held against the back rib of the key with a plastic or rawhide hammer. The wooden dowel has a piece of tech cork glued to the end to prevent it from marring the key. Ferrees makes a set of tools to bend the backs of saxophone keys down, but I only use those in cases where a dowel can't be used.

If the front of the key is too high, I will generally put the craft stick between the back of the key and the tonehole, and bend the front of the key down with my fingers. I prefer key bending and adjusting the amount of shellac to adding cardboard shims except in the most severe cases.

The craft sticks work well because they never harm the tonehole, and they can be quickly cut to the size needed with a pair of wire cutters, or even heavy duty scissors.

 

[bariman2sing]

Hi and apoloigies for the typo error as I was in a rush to get the thread out.

In this case. The back of the key G# key cup is too high at the hinge side but low in the front. Perhaps the post placement has a part in this.

The problem is worse because the hinge side (west) tone hole wall is low and cannot be raised or work on as the rib plate prevents this.

Jbtsax where on the back rib of the key cup would be the specific part to tap on with a wood dowel? BTW the G# key cup is straight and level on the anvil.

Anyways thanks to Simso and Jbtsax for their insight.

 

[jbtsax]

The photo below shows the spot. This is what I call the "rib" of the key at the back of the key cup.

 

[clarnibass]

When you say the key cup is level on an anvil, you mean the rim around it is level, yes? That doesn't mean the back of the key cup is level, which is more important. Just FWIW. Though if the rim is level then usually the back is at least mostly level too.

If it leaks "evenly" at the back then you can try a thicker pad first. Sometimes even a pad in (supposedly) the same thickness will be fine beacuse they don't have the deep seat already. Or you can install with a bit more glue if necessary.

I like the method of aligning keys over floating and messing with the pad when possible. To bend a key front/back without distorting it is possible but IME not as simple as just putting a type of shim and press/tap. It depends on the shape and properties of the key cup and key arm e.g. if the key arm is short and very rigid and the key cup is big and soft, you are likely to bend the key cup. A good design usually considers this and would make keys bend where they should. Though the G# often has a very short arm and can be difficult to bend this way even with a decent design. This is a Mark VII so the key cup should be good IME, but the key arm might still be short and rigid and hard to manipulate like this. Sometimes it's possible to modify key arms to make them bend in the way you want.

Although I'd prefer bending if possible to do without issues, I think that for the 0.6mm space at the back of a G# key that you are mentioning, I'd recommend putting more glue first and see how it goes.

 

[jbtsax]

Although I'd prefer bending if possible to do without issues, I think that for the 0.6mm space at the back of a G# key that you are mentioning, I'd recommend putting more glue first and see how it goes.

I agree. The purpose of "dry fitting" a pad without shellac is to estimate the amount of shellac required to give the pad the necessary "protrusion" to touch at the same time front to back. Music Medic offers shims for saxophone pads to add to the height in the key cup, but I am not fond of the idea of gluing a shim to the key cup and then gluing the pad on top of that. If adding shims were necessary, I would prefer to just use a thicker pad.

 

[Raphyel]

I agree. The purpose of "dry fitting" a pad without shellac is to estimate the amount of shellac required to give the pad the necessary "protrusion" to touch at the same time front to back. Music Medic offers shims for saxophone pads to add to the height in the key cup, but I am not fond of the idea of gluing a shim to the key cup and then gluing the pad on top of that. If adding shims were necessary, I would prefer to just use a thicker pad.

I agree on using shellac to fill the space, and adjust the pad. Also a great tool if you don't have it is the stainless pad tool set. They streamline fixing just the problem you are referring to. They cut my work down significantly in adjusting the pads (as long and the tone holes are level, because when you initially glue the pads, you may have the back or front of the pad in farther, so when you try to set is up if the whole pad moves, the misalignment is still there, but with those tools, you heat up the keycups, and press down and just move the tools in a semi-circle from side to side, and they do a great job of leveling. You just have to be careful not to use one that is too big for the tonehole. I choose whichever one is about 2mm larger than the tonehole to prevent it from pushing on the pads areas at the periphery of the keycup.
I am sure musicmedic probably has them. I think I got mine from Feree's.

 

[Chris Peryagh]

Take into account it is a MkVII and pillar placement and alignment aren't particularly great on these.