[Nefertiti]

Posted a new review of an amazing book by Dr. Mark Watkins entitled "From the Inside Out". "From the Inside Out" is a revolutionary in-depth comprehensive 309 page resource book for the development of saxophone sound. When this book is described as "in-depth", Dr. Watkins is not joking! It is 309 pages of descriptions, scientific data, scientific and medical terms, a plethora of fluoroscopy and endoscopy photos (photos and scans of the inside of the mouth and vocal tract) as well as countless diagrams, charts, illustrations and a variety of quotes from saxophone players, teachers, doctors and scientists. (In fact, 92 subjects participated in a variety of vocal tract and saxophone tone production projects). It even has links to a number of videos showing the inside of the mouth and vocal tract while playing! An amazing resource that will you will find fascinating and illuminating as a saxophone player and/or teacher! Check out the full review:

https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/2020/01/from-the-inside-out-by-dr-mark-watkins-book-review/

 

[Hassles]

Fascinating!

 

[Nefertiti]

Anyone else check out this book? Curious about other people's opinions on this book........

 

[Serafino]

This is still the only hit I get at this forum regarding this book. Thanks for the review!

 

[Nefertiti]

This is still the only hit I get at this forum regarding this book. Thanks for the review!

You're welcome. Most in-depth book I have read on the subject that is for sure!

 

[Serafino]

Ah one more data point:

Tongue and vocal chord position: Myth vs. Reality!

I've recently read From the Inside Out , a book that I feel is one of the most important contributions to saxophone playing and teaching e...

everythingsaxophone.blogspot.com

...and just to bring this into the picture: Mark Watkins : How to produce saxophone sound (with live...

 

[Serafino]

Is this book solely descriptive, or does it provide any teaching tools for helping students find the correct actions?

 

[Nefertiti]

Is this book solely descriptive, or does it provide any teaching tools for helping students find the correct actions?

It is incredibly descriptive which I find very helpful. There is so much info in this book that it is overwhelming. It's sort of like sitting down and deciding you are going to read the Bible. It sounds like a good idea but then you start and realize what a project it is!

I'm coming at it as a teacher but also eternal student and I find it fascinating and enlightening. I'll have to look through it again in regard to teaching tools but what I love about it is that it gives you many examples of what different teachers might teach you and then shows you what is really going on behind the scenes. I think this might help the student in thinking about what is going on differently and perhaps open a door for them to success. That being said, it doesn't tell you what is happening an then give you five steps to achieve this same result. It's not a book like that....... I hope that answered your question. Steve

 

[wanderso]

I’ve had this book about two years. As a scientist and didactics-oriented novice player, I thought it would unlock the secrets of voicing and give me a shortcut to beautiful sound, articulation, clean bell tone attacks, overtones, altissimo...
My first skim I was very frustrated because Watkins includes quotes from so many writers who are clearly wrong or misleading with respect to actual laryngeal/oral configuration or acoustics or physics of airflow—I guess out of his desire to present all points of view and perhaps not insult respected teachers. I was simply confused.
Also, Watkins includes long quoted dialogs with various instrument acoustics experts on questions he poses. These are fascinating, but in my opinion more appropriate for author's notes than a finished text.
I took a second look about a year later that was more focused and found some pearls, but mostly AFTER I had mastered a playing element through trial and error and muscle memory, guided by a teacher, and then confirmed I was on track by reviewing the text and videos.
This book to me is like a massive collection of library and lab research notes, loosely organized and assembled into categories. It is NOT a method book. Frankly, it could use a rigorous editing by an academic publisher.
What is required for learners to make faster progress with this fabulous resource is for a teacher skilled in pedagogy to mine it for information of practical utility for developing players and assemble that into a consistent curriculum of conclusive (and effective) recommendations, omitting the extraneous data and contradictions.
I have great hope that just such a volume will soon be published by Dr. Ben Britton who is currently revising his earlier two books Complete Approach to Sound and Complete Approach to Overtones with a thorough understanding of the information presented by Watkins as well as feedback from his students with whom he has explored various approaches to the material.
The great lesson from this book which possibly must be learned through player experience rather than reading is that VOICING is the key to consistent and beautiful sound: controlling the position of the larynx and apposition of the vocal folds, at least two segments of the tongue independently, the soft palate, the lower jaw, labial muscles... as well as audiating ("pre-hearing") the desired pitch and timbre prior to producing the sound. Self-awareness of voicing configuration and discerned listening and tone feedback for accurate self-criticism and correction are not automatic! Those skills also must be learned.
Developed saxophone players sound like themselves because of their voicing and anatomy (as well as texture, articulation, phrasing, note choice…) just as singers also sound uniquely themselves. To some extent, a learner can imitate or emulate, but eventually a sound will evolve that is unique to oneself and partly constrained by one's anatomy and fine motor control.
Seasoned players and pros produce correct configurations autonomously and may have forgotten all the steps they took while developing, or may use personalized descriptive language to describe their maneuvers that is not helpful for others to replicate their success.
The challenge this book presents is whether trial-and-error is the only route to mastery, or a pedagogy of concepts and exercises can be developed from it that will speed progress toward beautiful, controlled sound that more efficiently yields the player's desired concept.

 

[Nefertiti]

I've had this book about two years. As a scientist and didactics-oriented novice player, I thought it would unlock the secrets of voicing and give me a shortcut to beautiful sound, articulation, clean bell tone attacks, overtones, altissimo...
My first skim I was very frustrated because Watkins includes quotes from so many writers who are clearly wrong or misleading with respect to actual laryngeal/oral configuration or acoustics or physics of airflow-I guess out of his desire to present all points of view and perhaps not insult respected teachers. I was simply confused.
Also, Watkins includes long quoted dialogs with various instrument acoustics experts on various questions he poses. These are fascinating, but in my opinion more appropriate for author's notes than a finished text.
I took a second look about a year later that was more focused and found some pearls, but mostly AFTER I had mastered a playing element through trial and error and muscle memory, guided by a teacher, and then confirmed I was on track by reviewing the text and videos.
This book to me is like a massive collection of library and lab research notes, loosely organized and assembled into categories. It is NOT a method book. Frankly, it could use a rigorous editing by an academic publisher.
What is required for learners to make faster progress with this fabulous resource is for a teacher skilled in pedagogy to mine it for information of practical utility for developing players and assemble that into a consistent curriculum of conclusive (and effective) recommendations, omitting the extraneous data and contradictions.
I have great hope that just such a volume will soon be published by Dr. Ben Britton who is currently revising his earlier two books Complete Approach to Sound and Complete Approach to Overtones with a thorough understanding of the information presented by Watkins as well as feedback from his students with whom he has explored various approaches to the material.
The great lesson from this book which possibly must be learned through player experience rather than reading is that VOICING is the key to consistent and beautiful sound: controlling the position of the larynx and apposition of the vocal folds, at least two segments of the tongue independently, the soft palate, the lower jaw... as well as auditing ("pre-hearing") the desired tone and timbre prior to producing the sound. Self-awareness of voicing configuration and discerning listening and tone feedback for self-criticism and correction are not automatic! They themselves must be learned.
Seasoned players and pros produce correct configurations autonomously and may have forgotten all the steps they took while developing, or may use personalized descriptive language to describe their maneuvers that is not helpful for others to replicate their success.
The challenge this book presents is whether trial-and-error is the only route to mastery, or a pedagogy can be developed from it that will speed progress toward beautiful, controlled sound that more efficiently yields the player's desired concept.

I'm not sure a pedagogy that is 100% effective will ever be developed just because what needs to be learned can only be learned by experience and trial and error. It's sort of like asking a high wire artist to give you a lesson in a classroom on how to tightrope walk from building to building. He can try to explain what he does and how he interprets it for a couple of hours but until you get on that rope and start trying over and over you will never know.

Most of the things great players do while playing were learned by playing and then they tripped upon something while playing that worked. I was never taught correctly about voicing and altissimo but learned these things from experimenting and getting to them in a very haphazard route that I have refined over the years. I think most players are like that.

I would not suggest this book for a beginner player at all. Beginner players whether young or old need simple explanations, descriptions and concrete steps to take. This is a huge book filled with so much information that it is overwhelming.

I do think it is an incredible book for those who are teachers or desire to be teachers. It can be a great book for players but honestly, I have met a lot of players that don't teach that could care less about all the minutiae about how things work. They get a glazed look over their eyes and really don't care. What matters to them is the end result which they can already do. That's why, when later, a lot of these guys start teaching saxophone stuff, you get a lot of the vague explanations and many times wrong explanations of what is going on inside the body that are based off of what we perceive is going on. This book is fascinating to me because it is the first that I have seen that goes to the depths of trying to explain what is going on with actual data, video and photos as well.

 

[wanderso]

Steve, I hear you.
I write and understand from the perspective of a lifetime learner and practitioner and teacher of science and medicine who first got within 20 feet of a saxophone at age 60. And fell in love.
I'm not the same kind of student as a middle-schooler with flexible vacuum brain and quick nimble fingers and bands and band directors and peers and the motivation of honors and university and maybe a musical career and most importantly TIME and a long future ahead.
In addition to curating gear and teaching resources that I think will help me, and practicing while learning to practice efficiently, and--as a teacher--observing myself learning with curiosity and amusement, I seek the holy grails--the reference materials that accurately at least describe the anatomy and physics of what is going on with sound production.
I decided pretty early that my time would be better spent practicing with the horn than dissecting and rebuilding the Watkins book into a tool that would be practical for me. But the information IS in there!
Bless and praise the teachers, their calling and their quest and their labor, and the achievements of the students they gift to us.

 

[Nefertiti]

I've had this book about two years. As a scientist and didactics-oriented novice player, I thought it would unlock the secrets of voicing and give me a shortcut to beautiful sound, articulation, clean bell tone attacks, overtones, altissimo...
My first skim I was very frustrated because Watkins includes quotes from so many writers who are clearly wrong or misleading with respect to actual laryngeal/oral configuration or acoustics or physics of airflow-I guess out of his desire to present all points of view and perhaps not insult respected teachers. I was simply confused.
Also, Watkins includes long quoted dialogs with various instrument acoustics experts on questions he poses. These are fascinating, but in my opinion more appropriate for author's notes than a finished text.
I took a second look about a year later that was more focused and found some pearls, but mostly AFTER I had mastered a playing element through trial and error and muscle memory, guided by a teacher, and then confirmed I was on track by reviewing the text and videos.
This book to me is like a massive collection of library and lab research notes, loosely organized and assembled into categories. It is NOT a method book. Frankly, it could use a rigorous editing by an academic publisher.
What is required for learners to make faster progress with this fabulous resource is for a teacher skilled in pedagogy to mine it for information of practical utility for developing players and assemble that into a consistent curriculum of conclusive (and effective) recommendations, omitting the extraneous data and contradictions.
I have great hope that just such a volume will soon be published by Dr. Ben Britton who is currently revising his earlier two books Complete Approach to Sound and Complete Approach to Overtones with a thorough understanding of the information presented by Watkins as well as feedback from his students with whom he has explored various approaches to the material.
The great lesson from this book which possibly must be learned through player experience rather than reading is that VOICING is the key to consistent and beautiful sound: controlling the position of the larynx and apposition of the vocal folds, at least two segments of the tongue independently, the soft palate, the lower jaw, labial muscles... as well as audiating ("pre-hearing") the desired pitch and timbre prior to producing the sound. Self-awareness of voicing configuration and discerned listening and tone feedback for accurate self-criticism and correction are not automatic! Those skills also must be learned.
Developed saxophone players sound like themselves because of their voicing and anatomy (as well as texture, articulation, phrasing, note choice&#8230 just as singers also sound uniquely themselves. To some extent, a learner can imitate or emulate, but eventually a sound will evolve that is unique to oneself and partly constrained by one's anatomy and fine motor control.
Seasoned players and pros produce correct configurations autonomously and may have forgotten all the steps they took while developing, or may use personalized descriptive language to describe their maneuvers that is not helpful for others to replicate their success.
The challenge this book presents is whether trial-and-error is the only route to mastery, or a pedagogy of concepts and exercises can be developed from it that will speed progress toward beautiful, controlled sound that more efficiently yields the player's desired concept.

I was thinking of doing something similar to what you say Ben Britton is working on when I did my review of the book and still might. I felt a bit conflicted about taking out the gold nuggets from the Watkins book and posting them online for all to read and then no one buys the Watkins book. That's why I didn't move forward with that plan. It felt unethical to me especially after the incredible amount of work he put into that book. Although, the end goal I would think is too inform and teach teachers so I would think he would want the knowledge passed on. I should ask him about that......

 

[Serafino]

The challenge this book presents is whether trial-and-error is the only route to mastery, or a pedagogy of concepts and exercises can be developed from it that will speed progress toward beautiful, controlled sound that more efficiently yields the player's desired concept.

Thank you very much for your posts, you covered the ground very thoroughly AND expressed the core challenge very well indeed. I am aware of wonderful examples in other fields of the teaching of 'impalpable' skills, for instance in the world of bowed string instruments, or a teacher in a fairly new sport who has figured out how to help his students shift into fluidly seeing events that happen so quickly that beginners don't register them at all. I am confident that what you describe will come to be. In fact I keep hunting around hoping that somewhere it already exists.

 

[Serafino]

I have owned this book for over a year now and I have started to get a handle on getting the most out of it. From the perspective of a student at any rate, I think the most important thing to grasp during your first dive into it is a sense of the structure of the chapters. That will prove very helpful when the first round of throwing up your hands fades and you start looking to the book to answer questions about specific techniques. The ability to skim and zoom in on what is relevant to your current questions makes the information more accessible and likely to be retained.

The tables and diagrams are great signposts for orienting toward information about what players actually do. Then at the end of most chapters there is a section that includes exercises for developing the techniques discussed in that chapter.

Even when there are not exercises addressing specific aspects of techniques brought up in a given chapter, you at least can learn what you are looking for. For instance I have found very useful and relevant exercises from singing pedagogy related to the independence of the tongue and larynx which I would not have known to look for otherwise.

I think the only reason this indispensable book has not revolutionized saxophone pedagogy is that such revolutions take time. Taking ownership of the information takes a lot of effort. There are already many exercises and methods for teaching in the book, and the basis it provides for further creative solutions is solid and detailed.