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As I watch it again. I see all the cues I gave myself and all the things I need to work on also. This to me is like you are sitting next to me in a practice room at a college and listening to what im doing and listening to all at the mistakes, starting over, working on one area, doing the scale over and over. Etc. so its watching how i work out whatever which to me is far more important than what im working on K
 

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I enjoyed your video. Another way to approach the "altered scale" that works for me is that it begins with the diminished scale and ends with a whole tone scale. When my jazz instructor introduced me to the altered scale I had already had the three diminished scales and the two whole tone scales under my fingers so it was relatively easy to transfer that to the new scale.
 

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Keith, a quick "thanks" for the video!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I enjoyed your video. Another way to approach the "altered scale" that works for me is that it begins with the diminished scale and ends with a whole tone scale. When my jazz instructor introduced me to the altered scale I had already had the three diminished scales and the two whole tone scales under my fingers so it was relatively easy to transfer that to the new scale.
I forgot that way. you are right its great if you know your diminished and whole tone scales which I do. But once again its not what you know but can you use it many m ay ways> K
 

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My practice goal was to simply rip the diminished and whole tone scales full range fluently, after that my solo patterns are unplanned and random, hopefully musical. I do use both diminished and augmented patterns consciously on occasions depending on mood. I try to feel and not think too much when I solo.
 

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Cash, this video is much much more about how to work on anything than what I am currently working on . my steps are I have a clear idea on what I want to do , I start slow and keep good time (tone sucks at first but not so much I ditched the video) then I demonstrate how I work it out. The main point is that I am working on playing that scale with a resolution many many ways. I start all scalar and then try to add leaps. I start with only part of the scale and see what that leads to. I notice areas of the horn that need more work (palms and table keys).

The hardest thing for me is to just work on the alt scale to a minor pentatonic resolution. I quickly want to throw in other notes or skip to a completely new scale but thats the challenge. To stick to one thing for at least 5 minutes. and be able to know when Its not what I want and then stop, restart. This to me is the logical process to learn anything. Isolate exactly what you want to do, have a goal in mind and focus. Your thing about knowing diminished and whole tones scales is wonderful. But the process would be the same, stick to the one scale for an extended time and PRACTICE what you cant do. So if leaps around the scale are hard, or the scale in the palms or alt are hard, or resolving the scale is hard. whatever.

Then there is also performance practice where you play a set of changes or a song and you DONT Stop for any reason. You practice performing, not working on a tune. Perform it , tape it see if you like it I agree about the thinking part. I'd rather just space out and blow the way I usually do but I did that for 20 years and what came out of the horn never changed for me. I learned new tunes but I played them the same way with the same licks and the same level of understanding.

So thats just me, I've seen what I did on own and now what I've done with a teachers help. I couldn't play any alt scale a year ago or if could I had no way to use it fast enough to get it into a line I was improvising. But now I have better ability. Am I done??? Hell no. I have lots of work to do on this and other things I want to improve in my playing. Adding sub V7s to changes, currently im adding the 6 to my blues scales and that creates an entire different sound. But You play well Cash and you have your process You sounded great some 30 years ago when I heard you in a trio in Sauceilito so to each his own

Many people have never been to a college where you hear others practicing in the next room. Thats what I doing with added text and verbal explanations of what im trying to do K
 

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Discussion Starter #8
BTY all my recordings lately im using the 10 M Showboat. Best piece Ive played in years. I can go bright /sanbory/or dark woffy like a tenor and its move my alt up to E above palm E
 

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Another way to approach the "altered scale" that works for me is that it begins with the diminished scale and ends with a whole tone scale.
+1. That's the approach I prefer because it eliminates the need to think of another scale with a different root. I call it the "diminished whole tone scale."
 

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Well I admit you guy are getting a bit technical for me, but all good !!

K that mpc sounds great, my "theory" there's only 12 notes.

Sometimes I use them all, sometimes I don't.
 

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Cash, this video is much much more about how to work on anything than what I am currently working on . my steps are I have a clear idea on what I want to do , I start slow and keep good time (tone sucks at first but not so much I ditched the video) then I demonstrate how I work it out. The main point is that I am working on playing that scale with a resolution many many ways. I start all scalar and then try to add leaps. I start with only part of the scale and see what that leads to. I notice areas of the horn that need more work (palms and table keys).

The hardest thing for me is to just work on the alt scale to a minor pentatonic resolution. I quickly want to throw in other notes or skip to a completely new scale but thats the challenge. To stick to one thing for at least 5 minutes. and be able to know when Its not what I want and then stop, restart. This to me is the logical process to learn anything. Isolate exactly what you want to do, have a goal in mind and focus. Your thing about knowing diminished and whole tones scales is wonderful. But the process would be the same, stick to the one scale for an extended time and PRACTICE what you cant do. So if leaps around the scale are hard, or the scale in the palms or alt are hard, or resolving the scale is hard. whatever.

Then there is also performance practice where you play a set of changes or a song and you DONT Stop for any reason. You practice performing, not working on a tune. Perform it , tape it see if you like it I agree about the thinking part. I'd rather just space out and blow the way I usually do but I did that for 20 years and what came out of the horn never changed for me. I learned new tunes but I played them the same way with the same licks and the same level of understanding.

So thats just me, I've seen what I did on own and now what I've done with a teachers help. I couldn't play any alt scale a year ago or if could I had no way to use it fast enough to get it into a line I was improvising. But now I have better ability. Am I done??? Hell no. I have lots of work to do on this and other things I want to improve in my playing. Adding sub V7s to changes, currently im adding the 6 to my blues scales and that creates an entire different sound. But You play well Cash and you have your process You sounded great some 30 years ago when I heard you in a trio in Sauceilito so to each his own

Many people have never been to a college where you hear others practicing in the next room. Thats what I doing with added text and verbal explanations of what im trying to do K
K you have a great technical approach, my approach is more tactile. I was 30 before I got serious about learning real fluency in all major keys, 20 yrs later I was still working on it..I added dims and wholetones along the way..I studied Schillenger and Slonimsky..not to mention Coker's patterns, etc etc and many more, I have shelves of Books...But basically I just hit the Bandstand as much as I could.

I hear so many supposed "great" players playing endless repetitions and variations of the same thing theme over and over. I like to try and play a tune better and fresher every time I perform it. Tone and technique, more notes, less notes, different notes? I use all that. I'll play Ipanema tomorrow for the live crowd and it'll be the best one yet.
 

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I enjoyed your video. Another way to approach the "altered scale" that works for me is that it begins with the diminished scale and ends with a whole tone scale. When my jazz instructor introduced me to the altered scale I had already had the three diminished scales and the two whole tone scales under my fingers so it was relatively easy to transfer that to the new scale.[/QUOTE

Let me understand this ?

if my First diminished scale starts on C

if my Second diminished scale starts on C#

my Third diminished scale starts on ____________?????

:(
 

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I enjoyed your video. Another way to approach the "altered scale" that works for me is that it begins with the diminished scale and ends with a whole tone scale. When my jazz instructor introduced me to the altered scale I had already had the three diminished scales and the two whole tone scales under my fingers so it was relatively easy to transfer that to the new scale.[/QUOTE

Let me understand this ?

if my First diminished scale starts on C

if my Second diminished scale starts on C#

my Third diminished scale starts on ____________?????

:(
seems like a trick question but I'll say D. D diminished scale is my final answer.
 

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Let me understand this ?

if my First diminished scale starts on C

if my Second diminished scale starts on C#

my Third diminished scale starts on ____________?????

:(
LOL, I hear you, Cash! This stuff gets so loaded down with terminology that it starts to sound like gobblygook at a certain point. I'll freely admit I never really think about using an altered scale when I'm on the bandstand. Like you say, I just play and try to make it sound good. But in the practice room maybe it's a bit different. Anyway, here's my explanation of a 'dim/whole tone scale' (altered scale):

First 4 notes (ascending) are the dim scale starting on a half step; next 3 are a whole tone scale. In steps it would be like this: HWHWWW; C altered scale: C Db Eb E F# G# A#

Probably best to think of the chord, C7, with alterations (b9 #9 #11 b13). Or something like that...
 

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seems like a trick question but I'll say D. D diminished scale is my final answer.
Not a trick question..

but I don't understand the ("three diminished scales") concept either..I learned Whole-Step Half-Step pattern produces a diminished scale. So start on C or C# (D is just C all over) Perhaps Pontius will enlighten us
 

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LOL, I hear you, Cash! This stuff gets so loaded down with terminology that it starts to sound like gobblygook at a certain point. I'll freely admit I never really think about using an altered scale when I'm on the bandstand. Like you say, I just play and try to make it sound good. But in the practice room maybe it's a bit different. Anyway, here's my explanation of a 'dim/whole tone scale' (altered scale):

First 4 notes (ascending) are the dim scale starting on a half step; next 3 are a whole tone scale. In steps it would be like this: HWHWWW; C altered scale: C Db Eb E F# G# A#

Probably best to think of the chord, C7, with alterations (b9 #9 #11 b13). Or something like that...
I need to sit down, light up, crack a cold one and try this out..will it work on Giant Steps ?? or Mustang Sally????
 

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Not a trick question..

but I don't understand the ("three diminished scales") concept either..I learned Whole-Step Half-Step pattern produces a diminished scale. So start on C or C# (D is just C all over) Perhaps Pontius will enlighten us
D isn't the same as C. Eb is the same as C. If you do whole half the diminished scales would be:

CDEbFGbAbABC
C#D#EF#GAA#CC#
DEFGG#A#BC#D

Those are all different. Eb is the same as C EbFGbAbABCDEb.

C Eb F# A diminished scales are the same notes

C# E G Bb diminished scales are all the same notes

D F Ab B diminished scales are all the same notes
 

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Not a trick question..

but I don't understand the ("three diminished scales") concept either..I learned Whole-Step Half-Step pattern produces a diminished scale. So start on C or C# (D is just C all over) Perhaps Pontius will enlighten us
Yeah, this is a different issue. I thought you were commenting on the 'dim/whole tone' (altered scale). Sorry for that misunderstanding!

I get three distinct diminished scales. You can start each one from any of the 4 notes in a diminished chord and there are three of those.

Actually Cash, I don't think "D is just C all over." Because a D diminished scale is different from the C diminished scale. It's also different from the C# diminished scale, so that makes three scales. Or am I missing something here?

It might be worth pointing out that the D dim scale is the same as the B, F, & Ab dim scales, so any one of those could be listed as the 'third' diminished scale.

p.s. I see Nef just posted the same idea while I was typing this!!
 

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Aha I knew somebody around here knows what's going on..OK I guess there's 3 ..guess I missed the third one, I left early I had a gig. THANKS to Steve I stand remanded and will go back to the wood shed.

Oh yeah my sincere apologies to questioning Pontius who obviously knows more than ME LOL:mrgreen:




Now I also wonder how I will apologize to K for sort of hi-jacking his great thread..:(


I gotta go check on my Berg, Later.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Im with you 1000 percent. I dont want to sound like a bumble bee or the latest exercise my teacher gave me. The goal is always the same. come up with stuff using this scale the a YOU like. There is no pattern you are being asked to memorize, there are no rules about how longs notes must be, or what space in volved. the goal is you have many options if you want to use this feel, sound. So you sound like Cash even though you are using this or any scale. So you do Girl the best you ever have. Go for it K
K you have a great technical approach, my approach is more tactile. I was 30 before I got serious about learning real fluency in all major keys, 20 yrs later I was still working on it..I added dims and wholetones along the way..I studied Schillenger and Slonimsky..not to mention Coker's patterns, etc etc and many more, I have shelves of Books...But basically I just hit the Bandstand as much as I could.

I hear so many supposed "great" players playing endless repetitions and variations of the same thing theme over and over. I like to try and play a tune better and fresher every time I perform it. Tone and technique, more notes, less notes, different notes? I use all that. I'll play Ipanema tomorrow for the live crowd and it'll be the best one yet.
 
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