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Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is what you do when you love True Tone altos but your right hand doesn't fits :tsk: between the opposed Bb bell key and the RH stack...

Also a great chance to update the TT keywork with the more sleek Aristocrat features as contoured and raised side trill key touches, improved LH pinky table, etc etc.

Eb trill will be also shut down
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I removed the tone hole from one side and brazed it on the other side.

Yes, it's a GP True tone, BTW:mrgreen:
 

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Interesting idea. I've got rather large mitts myself, and have gotten used to extending my hand out so the right hand thumb hook basically rests on the tip of my thumb at the fingernail. But that's pretty much with all horns for me.
 

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Why not move the other tonehole and use a Selmer type LH cluster?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Why not move the other tonehole and use a Selmer type LH cluster?
because that's another project I have going on :bluewink: a full modern mechanism True Tone alto. Chopped the main body and offset the LH toneholes as on any modern horn, closed the low B on the left side and moved it to the right side of the bell. I'm using a donor 21 for that one. This one will be built on Buescher parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Interesting idea. I've got rather large mitts myself, and have gotten used to extending my hand out so the right hand thumb hook basically rests on the tip of my thumb at the fingernail. But that's pretty much with all horns for me.
let's define large hands shall we... extended hand, from the base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger my hand's 22 cm (9 inches) I can play on a true tone alto as is, but as soon as there's challenging RH fingerings, I keep on bumpin' on the friggin low Bb cup and arm. Jubilee Stomp, eg, is a pain in the butt to play like that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Me too. Brothers from another mother, eh?
Ouch! so playing on a True Tone it's a challenge for you too. I can, but I prefer the later Aristocrat arrangement. I occasionally bump into the bell but that's fine.
 

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I have a Signet alto that I played from grade school to college and beyond that has scratches on the bell above the right hand keys from my fingernails hitting it over time. I guess I just shift my hand when playing the True Tone so I don't hit the keywork for the bell tonehole there. For some reason it's never been uncomfortable for me, but I guess I adjusted long ago and got used to resting the right hand thumb hook on the tip of my thumb for even my tenors.
 

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let's define large hands shall we... extended hand, from the base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger my hand's 22 cm (9 inches) I can play on a true tone alto as is, but as soon as there's challenging RH fingerings, I keep on bumpin' on the friggin low Bb cup and arm. Jubilee Stomp, eg, is a pain in the butt to play like that.
Good heavens--do your knuckles drag on the ground, too?

:twisted:
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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Good heavens--do your knuckles drag on the ground, too?

:twisted:
Are you trying to throw MartySax some bait? :tsk:

I, too, have especially large... hands. :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Are you trying to throw MartySax some bait? :tsk:

I, too, have especially large... hands. :shock:
Marty needs some awakening, he's been lying under the radar! heheheh :mrgreen:
How are you man?
 

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I'm afraid to ask... what's "divit" ?
er, it's a golf term (not that I'm a golfer or anything, or french for that matter). basically, I'm interested in how you filled the opposite tonehole like you did. I'm guessing you used the metal removed from the other side, but how did you do it so seemlessly??
 

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because that's another project I have going on :bluewink: a full modern mechanism True Tone alto. Chopped the main body and offset the LH toneholes as on any modern horn, closed the low B on the left side and moved it to the right side of the bell. I'm using a donor 21 for that one. This one will be built on Buescher parts.
I've wondered before whether there were any sonic or intonation problems associated with offset tone holes that Selmer was first to defeat -- because I've wondered why nobody started doing it before Selmer did (BA horns, early 50's?). With with 20/20 hindsight, it seems obvious!!

I take it that offsetting the tone holes does not inherently cause a intonation problem?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
er, it's a golf term (not that I'm a golfer or anything, or french for that matter). basically, I'm interested in how you filled the opposite tonehole like you did. I'm guessing you used the metal removed from the other side, but how did you do it so seemlessly??
I marked and cut away the tone hole on the RH side of the bell. Cutted it with a jeweller's saw (very fine) then took that tone hole (I left a small flange of about 3/32") and placed it on the other side. Marked the metal, cut away the portion that was underneat the TH to be relocated. Then using a ring soldering mandrel, put 4 brazing points as in N-S-W-E then completed it alternating the welding spots so there would be no warpage. The gap I had to fill with solder was in the order of .35 mm when I'm comfortable filling in for more than a milimeter... If you take a look at the first picture you can see the raw unfiled braze seam on the RH side of the bell thru the relocated tone hole.
Don't wanna brag but my brazing skills are one of my strenghts.

I've wondered before whether there were any sonic or intonation problems associated with offset tone holes that Selmer was first to defeat -- because I've wondered why nobody started doing it before Selmer did (BA horns, early 50's?). With with 20/20 hindsight, it seems obvious!!

I take it that offsetting the tone holes does not inherently cause a intonation problem?
Well, I cannot say that there's more intonation "problems" as before... I mean, the horn's natural (or unnatural) tendencies are still the same. As long as you keep material removal to a minimum and then compensate when filling in the seam... there's more problems at other joints like bow/bell and tenon joints.
 

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I guess if I had more brazing skills, i would realize more intuitively what you did. So, you did a precise cut (at an angle to create a flange) and used that ring mandrel to form solder points to attach and position the pieces in their new locations, and then filled in around it and buffed it smooth?

am I understanding you correctly?

:)
 

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alto: 82Zii/Medusa/Supreme, tenor: Medusa, bari: b-901, sop, sc-990
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I guess if I had more brazing skills, i would realize more intuitively what you did. So, you did a precise cut (at an angle to create a flange) and used that ring mandrel to form solder points to attach and position the pieces in their new locations, and then filled in around it and buffed it smooth?

am I understanding you correctly?

:)
Not a matter of skills when it comes to realize what's been done, is just that with a good brazing work and the correct alloy, it's hard to tell when something has been "hacked" together.
I haven't buffed it yet, the tone hole is barely pickled (removed the crystalized silver solder flux) and scraped, the other side I just filed a little over the surface and then sanded it with wet sandpaper.

Yes, as far as technique goes, if I'd have tried to form a continuous seam from the first spot all around the bell would have warped like hell and the tone hole, you have no idea. It will look like a bowtie. If you position the parts using separate weldspots and then tack diametrally opposed, alternating until you have abouit 1/4 to 1/8" between them spots and then "fill in the blanks", then the result is excellent and your weld is stronger and you have to do less cleanup and there's less shape shifting.
 
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