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Discussion Starter #1
Maybe I've said this before but it needs saying again. Somebody (maybe you) needs to creat a Joe Viola type book based on diatonic scale patterns written out in all 12 keys. Once they are done in major (i.e.seven note scales) they may be played using any other seven note scale or mode -just like Joe's. There are probably no more than 30 or so great sounding patterns and there are a few more that would be good for the fingers but you wouldn't want to use them in a solo.

I don't think this has been done and the reason is because it's such a vast project. No one would want to do it alone. Somebody should get a group of five to ten people to work on this and get it done. A team effort would make it bearable. As a bonus, it would make some money. I'd buy it.
 

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I'd buy it
 

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I got a series of exercises like what you're describing from Charlie Banacos - you had to transpose them yourself, though.

Why not just make up your own number patterns using scale degrees, and then transpose them? For example, 1-4-3-2-5-3-6-5 (C-F-E-D-G-E-A-G, C-F-Eb-D-G-Eb-A-G in dorian, C-F-Eb-D-G-Eb-Ab-G in harmonic minor, C-F-Eb-Db-G-Eb-Ab-G in phrygian, etc.).

Who cares if it sounds "good". Learn it as eighth notes (one 4/4 bar) in each key (and mode/scale) - write it out if that helps you. The thinking through and writing it out is part of the exercise. Then make up another one. It goes on forever, and it's free.
 

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Maybe I've said this before but it needs saying again. Somebody (maybe you) needs to creat a Joe Viola type book based on diatonic scale patterns written out in all 12 keys. Once they are done in major (i.e.seven note scales) they may be played using any other seven note scale or mode -just like Joe's.
Great idea, but no need to write them out in all 12 keys. If they are written in one key, then you can transpose them (by ear, in your head) to the other keys.

edit: While I was typing the above, I see andrewfrankhouse posted a similar idea regarding transposing.

However, I do think it matters how it sounds. If it doesn't sound good, or you can't play it so it sounds good, what's the point? There are hundreds of possible patterns that would sound good, so don't bother with those that don't.
 

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Somebody (maybe you) needs to creat a Joe Viola type book based on diatonic scale patterns written out in all 12 keys. Once they are done in major (i.e.seven note scales) they may be played using any other seven note scale or mode -just like Joe's. There are probably no more than 30 or so great sounding patterns and there are a few more that would be good for the fingers but you wouldn't want to use them in a solo.
I'm confused. You mean like a scale book with every combination (1-2-3-4-5-6-7, 1-6-4-3-2-5-7, etc)?
 

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I don't quite understand what you're thinking of. And also: why "For Neff", and then you say it should be a group task...
 

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I think I get the point of the post, but if your goal is to get together diatonic material for improvisation it really needs to be worked out BY EAR in all twelve keys. You can always just memorize the patterns off the page but you miss out on a lot in terms of that ear-finger connection that is so essential for an improvisor.

For some really ineresting diatomic exercises that are written out in every key you should check out Walt Weiskopf's "Around The Horn". I haven't spent a lot of time with it but I remember thinking it was pretty unique.... I think there are harmonic and ascending melodic minor exercises as well.
 

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Just got home from teaching and saw this. are you talking about common scale patterns like "Patterns for Jazz" or "Hanon" type lines that they have for piano but for sax. I actually have a number of these written out and use them in my Diatonic patterns lesson on my site. I just do them in one key and the student has to figure them out in the other 11. Are these the kind of things your talking about or something different?
 

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Maybe I've said this before but it needs saying again. Somebody (maybe you) needs to creat a Joe Viola type book based on diatonic scale patterns written out in all 12 keys. Once they are done in major (i.e.seven note scales) they may be played using any other seven note scale or mode -just like Joe's. There are probably no more than 30 or so great sounding patterns and there are a few more that would be good for the fingers but you wouldn't want to use them in a solo.

I don't think this has been done and the reason is because it's such a vast project. No one would want to do it alone. Somebody should get a group of five to ten people to work on this and get it done. A team effort would make it bearable. As a bonus, it would make some money. I'd buy it.
Also, how should it be different from the Viola books. More in depth or more patterns?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
That's what I do now, but it's tough for a beginner. The easiest (and most useful) pattern to start with is 123,234,345,..........876,765,.... Then the basic 3rds: 132435...867564 etc. There are a whole lot of good ones based on 3rds like 16712712 etc. If a group got together to write this book, it could wind up as the Hannnon of the saxophone. All sax players woud be required (by someone) to play it. Big bucks for retirement time.
 

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If you're a Smartmusic subscriber, the first pattern you mentioned is in the "Twisters" section of the exercises. These can be transposed into all 14 keys, and even cycled through by 4ths, 5ths, or minor 2nds.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Maybe I look at things differently because I'm a beginner. Joe Viola's book is great but it is mostly (and importantly) for straight scales and 3rds with with one basic style of ornamenting a chord tone. Let me tell you it is hard to to play say this pattern 123543, 234654.... in all keys by ear. It is relatively easy to read this pattern in all keys from a page and then work on doing it by ear. Maybe you wouldn't need a team to write this book. If you had let's say 30-40 patterns, it would 60 to 80 lines of music per key which is about 4 pages of music per key. With 12 keys you got maybe 50 pages. Then you would want to do some major and minor pentatonic patterns and monor with b5. Also, diminished and whole tone scale patterns. So it would be a 90 page book. A lot of work.
 

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I think your average beginner would get more out of mastering a handful of these exercises by ear in all keys than reading pages and pages The more you work out by ear the quicker they start to come together..... Just go slow at first!
 

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I think your average beginner would get more out of mastering a handful of these exercises by ear in all keys than reading pages and pages The more you work out by ear the quicker they start to come together..... Just go slow at first!
Absolutely!
Like you stated earlier, this is how you make the connection between what you hear in your head and what you play.
 

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i was thinking you're talking about commune patterns/phrases played on the Greaters solos, and compiled in a book... no need to transpose in the book..
 

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When ever I see a pattern book basd on "scale-mode" approach I always think to myself "there's alot to do about nothing".
 

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Let me tell you it is hard to to play say this pattern 123543, 234654.... in all keys by ear. It is relatively easy to read this pattern in all keys from a page and then work on doing it by ear.
Once you get it in one key, it shouldn't be that hard to transpose by ear. But you have to really get it down and hear it perfectly.

The whole point in learning anything by ear is that you will really learn the material (or tune or whatever) and also be training your mind and your ear to HEAR and play what you HEAR. Reading the sheet music will not help you in this at all. If your goal is to be a good reader, that's fine, but it won't help you as an improviser.

The fact that it might be "hard for a beginner" is irrelevant. It will get easier with practice. Learning to play well is not easy. We're all beginners at some level.

I should add that while this is a worthy idea, there are already more books of patterns and etudes out there than you could get through in a lifetime!
 

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The fact that it might be "hard for a beginner" is irrelevant. It will get easier with practice. Learning to play well is not easy. We're all beginners at some level.
Well said! Also, I thought that the old David Baker books, or the J. Cocker et al. book "Patterns For Jazz", already did that kind of diatonic pattern thing pretty comprehensively.
 
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