foil seals

1761 Views 14 Replies 8 Participants Last post by colemanhawkins, Jun 22, 2007

colemanhawkins

Discussion Starter · Jun 1, 2007

I have two tenors a Conn 10M and a Grassi Pro 2000. Both are cool saxes. I decided to try out the Grassi crook on the Conn for a laugh, and because it looks more modern. To pad out the slight different in neck size I ended up getting a square of kitchen foil, doubling it a few times and then wrapping around the crook to make a 'solid seal'. This really worked well! Creates an instant hybrid. Next I put the old 10M crook back on, with a thinner foil to try and get a better seal which was a little loose. And this really improved the original sound too. Making the seal more solid seems to reduce damping on resonances in the metal, which then get worked into the air column sound. So now I am thinking the mouthpiece cork could be replaced by shims of this type, although I haven't tried it yet. Anyway, folded foil is now an essential item in my bag.

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Othello3

· #2 · Jun 1, 2007

The foil on the neck tenon or the receiving end (on the sax body)? Are you just using pressure to hold in place or an adhesive?

Using the foil on the neck connection actually is a pretty good idea. I can't think of any adverse affects except that if you "over compensate" you may end up damaging the neck tenon. Also, the "replacing the neck cork with foil" idea probably isn't the greatest. Foil doesn't compress and is really slippery so it would be very hard to make the mouthpiece stay where you want it to. Also, foil made from aluminum or tin will vibrate a lot and probably create a lot of buzzy feedback-y sound.

colemanhawkins

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 2, 2007

The foil is wrapped around the tenon. It has a little bit of give because its layered. Does anyone have any similar tricks?

Sigmund451

· #4 · Jun 2, 2007

No but thanks for the idea. I dont need it right now but I will store stick it in my memory banks for emergencies and trials. I dont think there is much of a chance of doing damage but I would suggest getting a neck done right...Of course Im lazy and I dont like continued fussing

colemanhawkins

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 2, 2007

By neck done right, you mean having the tenon expanded out somehow to make up for the wear? I guess this could modify the acoustics a bit because the inner diameter would increase.

Sigmund451

· #6 · Jun 3, 2007

Ive never heard that anyone ever noticed a difference by correcting a tenon for a fit. I think the difference would be so minor as to either not make a noticable difference or to unconsciously correct for the difference. I realize you dont want your tenon to no longer fit your other horn but if you test out different aftermarket necks you may find one you like as well or better that can then be fit to your horn.

Saxdaddy

· #7 · Jun 3, 2007

I don't know, there is something about putting foil on neck tenon that I just don't trust. I would be worried about a small piece of foil getting caught between the receiver and tenon, causing major problems. Not for sure, but just seems like asking for trouble, then again I have never tried it. I would opt for a proper fitting neck. And teflon tape for the neck cork in a pinch. Again I would worry about aluminum not sitting flat, but bunching up under pressure and then scratching the inside of my mouthpiece.

Gordon (NZ)

· #8 · Jun 4, 2007

colemanhawkins said:
The foil is wrapped around the tenon. It has a little bit of give because its layered...

1. If you can squeeze even one layer of foil between the tenon and the body, then there must have been a HUGE leak. May I suggest that if it has a bit of give after several layers of filling, it will still leak. Teflon tape would be a far more successful temporary measure.
2. "By neck done right, you mean having the tenon expanded out somehow to make up for the wear?" K don't think the sloppy fit is because of wear, but rather because they were made different sizes.
3. "I guess this could modify the acoustics a bit because the inner diameter would increase." May I suggest that if you measure the inside diameters you will very likely find that you have a diameter step anyway, where the very end of the tenon meets the body. It's pro baby not such a big deal. Consider that a flute is pulled out for tuning, so there is an area of larger diameter beyond the end of the tenon. Consider that HUGE diameter change at the end of the sax mouthpiece tenon.
4. Tin-foil may be OK, but aluminium foil is presumably covered with aluminium oxide, which is the stuff white grind-stones are made from. So you will be introducing an abrasive which will accelerate wear of the brass surfaces.

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Saxland

· #9 · Jun 4, 2007

I use teflon tape, but I am curious.....how thick is the foil, it may say on the outside of the box. I want to try this on a leaky pad just for kicks.

Yeah I know....way to much time on my hands today.

Bennyg

· #10 · Jun 4, 2007

Saxland said:
I use teflon tape, but I am curious.....how thick is the foil, it may say on the outside of the box. I want to try this on a leaky pad just for kicks.

Yeah I know....way to much time on my hands today.

Piece of foil I have is 0.003" or 0.0762mm.

Gordon (NZ)

· #11 · Jun 5, 2007

Bennyg said:
Piece of foil I have is ... 0.0762mm.

Hmm.

I think different writers here have entirely different concepts of what constitutes a leak.

I regard a 0.02 mm leak, even under a pad, where there is some accommodation due to soft materials, as a significant leak. This can be demonstrated by how much light from a leak light leaks through a 0.02 mm translucent feeler when the pad is closed on it.

0.01 mm is large when talking about the fit of a tenon.

colemanhawkins

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jun 9, 2007

Wouldn't teflon damp down metalic vibrations? Someone showed me a kind of wall sound absorber the other day consisting of very narrow slits in metal sheets. Surprising how it can have so much effect. I guess that relates to the tenon leak.

Dog Pants

· #13 · Jun 9, 2007

So much seems to be made of the whole "vibrating horn" thing. I'll let the resident accoustics experts have a go at it, but FWIW, I've always thought that it was the reed that vibrates (producing the sound) and the horn resonates in response.
Some horns rumble when you play them and some don't. My Conn rumbles and shakes, my Buescher doesn't. My Martin is somewhere in the middle. I've never been of the opinion that the Conn had a more resonant sound than the Buescher or the Martin. Science might prove me wrong, but the whole resonance/vibration/dampening thing is a myth in my experience.

Gordon (NZ)

· #14 · Jun 10, 2007

colemanhawkins said:
Wouldn't Teflon damp down metallic vibrations? ...

It is possible that others, like me, have avoided discussing this concept you have, because the notion that the vibrating metal of a sax contributes to the sound has been discussed to death in other threads, many times over. The current discussion is at http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40249

It is well established that it is primarily - many would argue completely - the vibrations in the air column rather than the metal, that makes the sound that we hear, the metal acting only as a container and definer of the shape of that air column.

Some players will swear that the vibration of the metal makes a difference, and hence the metal itself, but science, and double blind testing suggest otherwise.

Do a forum search of posts by Kymarto if you want to peruse more of the discussion on this.

Of course, vibrating metal under the fingers of the player, feels good, and may well add to the player's pleasure, and also to what he interprets as good sound.

I suggest that in your case, the improvement in sound is entirely to do with reducing the leaks, in what is a crucial location of the air column.

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colemanhawkins

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jun 22, 2007

Thanks for all your comments.. interesting.

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