[jolind]

Hello SOTW fellows,

The 2020s have arrived and my tenor sound ideals have changed. I've been on the big fat american sound trip for the past 10 years or so, now I'm heading towards the opposite.
What I'm looking for is the compact focused but complex sound of a typical Mark VI from the 1960s/1970s in currently produced models on the market.

To clarify: Think Stanley Turrentine here:

Or Steve Grossman here:

I've had my hands on TJ signature custom raw XS which came quite close.
Then I've tried some other models which started to sound stuffy to my ears and either lost compactness/clarity (like the Mauriat 66 UL I tried) or complexity in sound (like the Viking M58s I had) when played louder.
What are your impressions with newer models concerning this topic? No offense to all the hobbyists here but I primarily direct this question to nerds and professionals who spend a lot of time on their instruments and know what a difference it can make when the horn doesn't feel right or just delivers 80% instead of 100 in difficult playing situations. It's about the more subtle differences here.

What do you think, are there any other models to be considered that head in that direction? I've heard good things about the Barone classic tenors but I've never tried one.

Thanks and best regards
John

 

[saxcop]

I am somewhat obsessed with doing head to head tests of the tenors I own and that pass through my hands(around 30). I understand what your saying to a degree. I also have some of the horns your talking about. I have a Mkvi, Viking Swing sonic and a Pm66r (both made by mauriat). While I believe the Taiwan horn is the best value on the market, I am moving back to the big fat american sound as you call it. I have late been playing mostly my King tenors, S20, Zephyrs. I am not a jazz player. I am a rock sax player.

I think the popularity of the Barone horn only exists from the hype on this web site. Having 7 different Taiwan tenors I came to the conclusion that they have a similarity. The one that is most like vintage horns in tone is the Eastman 640. Yes I happen to have one for sale and so does jayLID. Since he is a vendor, people can comment on his thread. One of the people that did so bought his horn from me. I'd suggest sending some messages to those people if that is of interest.

However being that your in Germany, I'd suggest trying a B&S Guardala, 2001 series, Medusa. All essentially the same horn, but actually my favorite brand. Yes I realize they are not currently produced.

 

[10mfan]

I haven’t played a real focused horn in a long time, but it would interesting to revisit that, after all these years.

As far as the Barone horns go, I’ve had a very special one here for some time.
It’s a Vintage model and it feels great and plays great. I’ve owned many others and this is the best I have played.


Jo, I hope you find what you are looking for. Saxcop is an incredibly great resource for saxophone knowledge.

 

[Scotssax]

If you think the Custom Raw came close then I'd highly recommend trying the Andy Sheppard Signature saxophone from Trevor James. It's a wonderful instrument.

 

[10mfan]

I haven’t had a chance to try any of those Trevor James horns. I look forward to it.
We are coming to Europe in a few months, so I hope I get the opportunity.

 

[1saxman]

'when the horn doesn't feel right or just delivers 80% instead of 100'

This describes the results I got from the recent overhaul on my MK VI (1971) so do not overlook the simple things like key opening heights or leaks when thinking of changing horns. Your horn might surprise you after some adjustments. I actually have not corrected mine yet but having owned it for 20 years, I know what its capable of.

 

[saxcop]

I had an 82z at one time. I should have kept that horn, but have been playing B&S horns for too long. Check this out if you haven't seen it. I think it does have that tone between Fat american and more focused. If 10mfan says Barone is great that is good enough for me. I play his mpcs and he is very accurate on tone descriptions.

https://www.saxophile.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=64

 

[10mfan]

Well, it’s just my opinion of the horn that I have.
It’s really a marvelous saxophone and feels great and sounds great. I have had many others and this is by far the best that I have owned. I really can’t give any negative comments on it.
I had a couple that I didn’t love a ton, but this one really hit the spot.

 

[HeavyWeather77]

For that kind of sound, I would definitely recommend trying out a Yamaha 82z. I sold a Mark VI for mine and haven't looked back, and it's been eleven years. I would also second the recommendation to look for a used B&S tenor. I have a B&S-made "Guardala" alto and it's very much like a fantastic Mark VI (I like it more than any Mark VI I've played, honestly). I'd also try a few Yanagisawas. Those are my three favorite makers of saxophones, even though B&S no longer does. So if you need a brand-new horn, that won't work.

On the vintage market, a Buffet Super Dynaction or S1 could fit the bill too, but again, no-go if you need something brand new! So I guess that leaves Yamaha and Yanagisawa, from my batch.

 

[turf3]

Since the majority of currently produced saxophones are copies of the Selmer Mark 6, any tonal differences among them are going to be minor; probably less than the difference between two reeds or the difference from how tired you are on two successive days.

Some years ago I did a direct back to back test of the top model from each of Yamaha, Selmer, Keilwerth, and Yanagisawa (yes, there was a time when the music stores would have, in stock, all of these at the same time). Honestly, to me as a lifelong Conn player, the tonal quality of all four was darn near identical - although I think the Keilwerth was slightly different than the other three. The reasons I decided I liked the Yamaha best came down to responsiveness, how the keywork felt under the fingers, and altissimo ease, but not the basic tonal quality.

Frankly, if I felt I wanted "more focus" I'd be looking at a mouthpiece change long before I'd be looking at an instrument change.

 

[JayeLID]

What I'm looking for is the compact focused but complex sound of a typical Mark VI from the 1960s/1970s in currently produced models on the market.

Wait...so you are looking for a contemporary-production model which sounds like a Mark VI ?

(How novel a question...never heard that before).

:bluewink:

Just yankin' yer chain, I get the idea....but seriously....a VI sounds like a VI.

VI supposed 'copies' or the overused 'modeled after a VI'...'inspired by'...blah-blah....are in fact, not VI's and I have yet to hear of one (confirmed by accurate analysis/measurements of body and neck) which IS a duplicated body of a VI (which therefore would result in the tone/blowing response/performance of one).

As turf notes, these are more likely copies of one another, than precise, intentional endeavors at truly achieving the VI je ne sais quoi....

BUT...my suggestion to you...since "compact focused yet complex" can be a bit subjective from player to player....would be to just go try a bunch of upper-shelf contemporary horns and see if some of 'em float your boat.

Even this statement, although I understand its intent, is very, very subjective and although you are trying to get a particular point across, how such a quality would be defined and perceived by others would be very variable:

....and know what a difference it can make when the horn doesn't feel right or just delivers 80% instead of 100 in difficult playing situations.

Now, I would say it is a fair characterization to state that almost ALL upper-shelf contemporary saxes are gonna blow more focused, less spread, and at least a bit brighter than the classic Big Ol' American/German sound.
As to whether they sound/seem/PERFORM... VI-like...again, I think that is in the ears and lungs of the beholder.

Yamaha
Yani
Eastman (these are GOOD..don't overlook them)
and sure why not try a Selmer as well (again not gonna argue their current models sound like a VI, but it is fair to say they seem rather VI-like to certain folks)

Keilwerth...no probably not, even modern ones still retain their own signature thang, not classic Selmer-esque at all

If you haven't seen this, it's as good a place to start as any, if for nothing other than perhaps some ideas of some to check out and some to avoid:

 

[raghav]

Interesting discussion. I've been interested in going in the opposite direction. I would love to try a horn that comes close to the vintage Conn 10Ms but with modern keywork. I used to own a Keilwerth SX90R that didn't do it, and while Borgani and Rampone have been mentioned as manufacturers they make a lot of different models, so not sure which ones to try or even where to try them.

 

[Dr G]

Interesting discussion. I've been interested in going in the opposite direction. I would love to try a horn that comes close to the vintage Conn 10Ms but with modern keywork. I used to own a Keilwerth SX90R that didn't do it, and while Borgani and Rampone have been mentioned as manufacturers they make a lot of different models, so not sure which ones to try or even where to try them.

Of the Borgani offerings, there are two basic designs: big bell/bore and smaller bell/bore. They ascribe various characters to their several finishes. See the website at Borgani.com. The bigger bore is more vintage-American style of Buescher TH&C and Conn, the smaller bore is more quick to respond and more focused - both have a lot of complexity in their core. I like 'em both in tenor, and have one of each - either could make one happy for a long time.

As to where to find Borgani in the US - good luck. Roberto's and TenorMadness carried them for a while, and Rafael Navarro used to distribute them, but I don't know where to find them today. They are small production and located in Italy, so our Euro friends have the edge there.

 

[jolind]

Thank you all for your serious replies and your insight so far! You definitely mentioned a couple of models I've not been aware of yet.
As some guys mentioned here I will of course test them all until I feel that the real thing has come along - all in all it stays a quite subjective kind of thing.

Actually it's not about a new instrument for me, the taiwan/otto link setup I currently play isn't worth more than 600 or 700 €/$ in total I'd say but it plays really well for me. I'm just looking for the 5 or 10% percent extra boost that is reliable at the same time. It doesn't have to be the best tenor on earth, that has never been my thing, just the best one for me that I like and can stay with, one for all occasions. I love my current setup as it's my own modified mpc and the tenor I've grown with as a tenorist but I'm not sure how often I can get that horn overhauled again before it falls apart...

:scratch:I guess my 10m will be for sale in a couple of weeks.

 

[raghav]

Of the Borgani offerings, there are two basic designs: big bell/bore and smaller bell/bore. They ascribe various characters to their several finishes. See the website at Borgani.com. The bigger bore is more vintage-American style of Buescher TH&C and Conn, the smaller bore is more quick to respond and more focused - both have a lot of complexity in their core. I like 'em both in tenor, and have one of each - either could make one happy for a long time.

As to where to find Borgani in the US - good luck. Roberto's and TenorMadness carried them for a while, and Rafael Navarro used to distribute them, but I don't know where to find them today. They are small production and located in Italy, so our Euro friends have the edge there.

Thanks for the perspectives.