Flute & sax embouchure changes over different ranges

2176 Views 31 Replies 7 Participants Last post by adamk, Jun 6, 2020

adamk

Discussion Starter · May 18, 2020

I've played flute for 50 years and feel confident about my abilities.
Sax a long time but didn't have much instruction or serious practice compared to flute.

On flute i change the air stream angle and shape for different registers.
For low notes a wider aperture and higher angle (almost straight across), for high a narrower hole and lower downward angle.

On sax I move my bottom lip/jaw slightly in and out thereby changing the amount of available reed for vibration.
Out for low (more reed) and in for high (less reed).

On both instruments these actions are graded throughout the whole note range.

Does this seem viable?

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lydian

· #21 · May 21, 2020

If a new 3 is as hard as a broken in 3 1/2, buy a couple of 2 1/2's.

Given your latest description, I think the bigger issue is your articulation. If I understand correctly, you interrupt the air flow by touching your tongue to the roof of your mouth while the underside of the tongue touches the reed? Don't do that.

I'm not entirely clear on how your staccato works either. You said tongue between the teeth. While that makes sense on flute, there happens to be a mouthpiece between your teeth on sax. So where does your tongue actually go? If it actually touches your teeth, then you're not putting the mouthpiece in your mouth correctly.

I think you went in the wrong direction very early and developed some bad habits that are going to take a lot of time and effort to correct. You really need one on one with a teacher. Even skype/zoom if that's the only practical solution right now. Something where an experienced player or teacher can see and hear what you're doing and demonstrate the correct approach so you can see and hear it.

I don't think he covers tonguing, but check out Jay Metcalf's (Better Sax) beginner Youtube videos about embouchure to at least get to a good starting point. I'll update this post with a link later, if I can find the video I'm thinking of.

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turf3

· #22 · May 21, 2020

The "between the teeth tonguing" was a fad in flute instruction some years ago. I was urged by my teacher to try it, but I found it highly obtrusive and detrimental to double tonguing, so I dropped it.

Obviously it doesn't cross over to sax tonguing, where the long accepted standard method is to touch the tip of the reed lightly with the tongue (this gives you a wide variety of articulations depending on how firmly you tongue, whether you use tonguing to stop the air stream or allow it to continue, etc.)

As you re-engineer your sax tonguing, I would urge you to avoid "anchor tonguing" which is where one sticks the tip of tongue behind the lower front teeth and tongues to the reed with the middle of the tongue - considerably less agility than using the tip (more or less) to touch the reed.

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lydian

· #23 · May 21, 2020

turf3 said:
The "between the teeth tonguing" was a fad in flute instruction some years ago. I was urged by my teacher to try it, but I found it highly obtrusive and detrimental to double tonguing, so I dropped it.

I think I know what you're talking about. If it's like spitting out a watermelon seed, I only use that technique on flute when I'm going for a really funky percussive effect while humming into it like Roland Kirk.

But I can't think of any flute articulation techniques that carry over to reed instruments. You really have to treat flute and sax like completely different instruments. I know first hand how hard that can be. If I go through a period of heavy flute playing, I find myself sometimes trying to use flute fingerings like LH3 for F# on sax.

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adamk

Discussion Starter · #24 · May 21, 2020

So tip of tongue on tip of reed?

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turf3

· #25 · May 21, 2020

Tip or near to it. Actually, you want some flexibility in that as well as all other aspects of single-reed tonguing.

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adamk

Discussion Starter · #26 · May 24, 2020

I really felt where my tongue sits in my mouth when playing.
It doesn't anchor top or bottom and articulates about 1/4 inch from the tip.
When I tried using the tip on the end of the reed it felt uncomfortable on the skin of the tip.

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adamk

Discussion Starter · #27 · May 24, 2020

I finally am getting to practice.
I put my tuner (strobe, accurate to 1% of 1 cent) on the music stand so I can glance at it while working on tunes or anything else
When I play intervals or scales I close my eyes and randomly open then to see where my intonation is.
Since i am a piano tech and tune by ear I'm dialing it in.
My goal is to be within 5 cents on all notes.
Of course if I play with the ireal app it's easier to match pitches.
I know everyone is out of tune to some extant.
On flute my sense of pitch is fairly well centered.

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lydian

· #28 · May 24, 2020

adamk said:
I really felt where my tongue sits in my mouth when playing.
It doesn't anchor top or bottom and articulates about 1/4 inch from the tip.
When I tried using the tip on the end of the reed it felt uncomfortable on the skin of the tip.

That 1/4" is perfectly fine. The lower you go, the more you'll probably have to use to get the notes to speak. On bass sax, I'm probably a half inch or more back.

Once you get the knack, you'll probably use less or more depending on the articulation. You can also move on to more advanced techniques like ghosting where you rest the tongue on the reed and still have it vibrating for the duration of the note.

Having a good ear like you do will certainly be a huge help. Randomly checking the tuner and relying mostly on your ear is the best approach. Sounds like you're on your way.

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adamk

Discussion Starter · #29 · May 25, 2020

Thanks, hope so.

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AltoMann

· #30 · May 25, 2020

turf3 said:
I doubt very much that the clasical saxophone player does not make ANY adjustments to embouchure over the range of ppp low Bb to fff high C (altissimo) to fff low Bb to ppp altissimo C. I don't think the horn and the human body can actually be made to work that way.

I strongly suspect the "no adjustments" is actually intended to keep people from dropping their jaw enormously for low notes and biting like crazy for high notes, and rather to push them toward the actual subtle adjustments that are done by skilled players.

When playing Classical I only make adjustments with my throat and tongue never with my jaw besides maybe on low Bb.

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Alain Gen

· #31 · May 25, 2020

AltoMann said:
turf3 said:

I doubt very much that the clasical saxophone player does not make ANY adjustments to embouchure over the range of ppp low Bb to fff high C (altissimo) to fff low Bb to ppp altissimo C. I don't think the horn and the human body can actually be made to work that way.

I strongly suspect the "no adjustments" is actually intended to keep people from dropping their jaw enormously for low notes and biting like crazy for high notes, and rather to push them toward the actual subtle adjustments that are done by skilled players.

When playing Classical I only make adjustments with my throat and tongue never with my jaw besides maybe on low Bb.

Click to expand...

Here may not be the place to discuss classical technique -that's not what the OP is aiming for.
However, from where I am (amateur classical saxophonist -I just hope I'm a good one...) I think the goal is not a complete immobility of the embouchure but its stability. You will make subtle unconscious adjustment anyway but you want to be as little dependent as possible on embouchure changes to play the notes. This stability will allow you to play large and fast interval jumps, which you couldn't if you have to make large embouchure adjustments.

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adamk

Discussion Starter · #32 · Jun 6, 2020

Played my alto 1st time in 3 months (only tenor) and it was as if I played the whole time.
Tenors is much better.

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