[adamk]

I've played flute for 50 years and feel confident about my abilities.
Sax a long time but didn't have much instruction or serious practice compared to flute.

On flute i change the air stream angle and shape for different registers.
For low notes a wider aperture and higher angle (almost straight across), for high a narrower hole and lower downward angle.

On sax I move my bottom lip/jaw slightly in and out thereby changing the amount of available reed for vibration.
Out for low (more reed) and in for high (less reed).

On both instruments these actions are graded throughout the whole note range.

Does this seem viable?

 

[lydian]

Depends. For jazz players, definitely yes. But classical players apparently make no such adjustments. Check out the video I posted here around the 30 second mark.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...to-determine&p=4133990&viewfull=1#post4133990

 

[adamk]

I will Thanks.

 

[adamk]

I think more reed is needed to get a full low note and less reed needs to vibrate for the higher.
Your example possibly corroborates my position.
How can one change the direction of the airstream on a sax mpc?

 

[lydian]

I think more reed is needed to get a full low note and less reed needs to vibrate for the higher.
Your example possibly corroborates my position.
How can one change the direction of the airstream on a sax mpc?

Airstream direction is changed with the tongue. This also affects the timbre. I can achieve a brighter or darker tone by raising or lowering the back of the tongue, changing the volume of the inside of my mouth. Opening the throat has other effects. All these changes become automatic after a little experimentation and making the connection between the oral/throat cavity changes and the resulting sound you hear, same as you've done on flute.

In my experience, I find that the opposite works for me in terms of getting the best tone and response in different registers. For low notes, I simultaneously drop and pull in my jaw, the net effect changing the pressure on the reed and the direction (vector) of the force applied. This gives me a full, lush sound, probably the opposite of what a classical player wants. Your method would achieve a brighter tone on low notes than mine and a thinner sound up high. I take in more reed up high to counteract this thin sound. This matches what you see in the video.

Bottom line, it all comes down to whatever allows you to produce the sound in your head. That will vary from person to person. Regardless, such adjustments are required in each register, each note in fact.

 

[adamk]

I keep my throat open. I've moved my tongue around and up and down, no change in tone. I have the genetically rare tongue that's thick and round not flat and cupped. Maybe that has an effect. I can't play harmonica and select individual notes by curving it into a "U".

 

[lydian]

It's really hard to describe. But it's not simply a matter of up and down really. If you simply move the tongue up and down, the air flow, direction and volume is constant. It's both changing the shape and expansion/contraction to change not only the trajectory of the air but also the internal volume of the mouth. If you can speak or drink through a straw, you probably have the tongue dexterity required.

Try this. Imitate the sound of a wind storm, vary the sound from a fast wind to a slow. In doing this the volume of your mouth will change and the pitch will change low to high. Your tongue moves forward and back, expanding and contracting. This sort of motion should also result in slight timbre changes. Move on to your throat, expanding as if yawning, then contracting back to normal. This will also have effects.

If this still doesn't work for you, one on one with a teacher is what you'll need (whenever that's practical again). He/she can evaluate any physical limitations, see/hear what you're doing and give more specific instruction.

 

[Bubba06]

At about 18 minutes, Chris Potter talks about how he (& Joe Allard) thinks about voicing the instrument, and getting his sound.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=543492763036120

He does talk about how he tried to reduce movement in his embouchure.

-Bubba-

 

[adamk]

I was taught with flute to always keep the throat open.
French articulation is tongue between the teeth, which I use for staccato.
My normal way is on the roof of the mouth which is what i do on sax.
I have been practicing tenor which always has been hard for me, I usually play alto.
I use a Couf Artist 9* HR on both horns but with different brands of reed and hardness.
Rico Royal 3 1/2 on tenor Vandoren 3 on alto.
Maybe i should stick to alto.

 

[Dr G]

I was taught with flute to always keep the throat open.
French articulation is tongue between the teeth, which I use for staccato.
My normal way is on the roof of the mouth which is what i do on sax.
I have been practicing tenor which always has been hard for me, I usually play alto.
I use a Couf Artist 9* HR on both horns but with different brands of reed and hardness.
Rico Royal 3 1/2 on tenor Vandoren 3 on alto.
Maybe i should stick to alto.

What is the actual tip opening of a Couf Artist 9* HR tenor? 3 1/2 RR seems like a lot of work. I used to play big tips and hard reeds, but you really don't have to work so hard to get a great sound.

 

[lydian]

I agree that's a crazy hard setup if 9* on Couf is as open as 9* is on other brands. That would take chops of steel.

I'm out of my depth on classical technique so maybe your articulation is normal, but I would personally never tongue that way on sax. Everything I've been saying about tongue shape and position so far has nothing to do with articulation, only tone production. When I articulate, my tongue always touches the reed except when double and triple tonguing, in which case both the tip and the back are used.

Assuming you're a classical player, hopefully a classical player will chime in with better advice to fit your situation.

 

[turf3]

I doubt very much that the clasical saxophone player does not make ANY adjustments to embouchure over the range of ppp low Bb to fff high C (altissimo) to fff low Bb to ppp altissimo C. I don't think the horn and the human body can actually be made to work that way.

I strongly suspect the "no adjustments" is actually intended to keep people from dropping their jaw enormously for low notes and biting like crazy for high notes, and rather to push them toward the actual subtle adjustments that are done by skilled players.

Certainly, using a 9* mouthpiece with 3.5 reeds is working way too hard unless you are trying to play in a rock band unamplified; and tonguing the saxophone to the roof of the mouth is an extremely unusual and non-standard method - everyone else touches the reed slightly. With a rig and technique like that, I'd never be able to get notes started and playing except with big tasteless honks and very little control of volume. (Not that I'm a virtuoso, but I've been playing saxophone for 40+ years in a wide range of settings.)

Why don't you try something like a #6 Link or #8 Meyer, and #2.5 reeds?

 

[lydian]

Just saw this recent post of yours related to this subject:

Reworking tenor embouchure now, alto is ok.
Not blatting but pitch is all over the place.
Have tuner on and referencing once in awhile.
Doing a lot of overtones.
Tone is coming but palm keys and up still weird.
Get tired out fast and take many breaks.
Refuse to bite even a little.

This is EXACTLY what I would expect on a setup like yours. Your mouthpiece is way too open and your reed way too hard. That will naturally result in fatigue and difficulty controlling pitch. No wonder the subtle tongue and throat changes make no difference. You've got nowhere near a workable setup and are fighting a losing battle. You need a much more conservative mouthpiece/reed as others have said. It's like you've just begun body building at the gym but started on the heaviest weights. You've got to start on something easy to handle and gradually work your way up.

 

[adamk]

I'll try my Otto Link HR 7* that I bought in the early 80s.
I have some Rico Royal 3s.

 

[adamk]

According to Theo Wanne chart a Couf 9 is 92, an Otto Link 7 is 100.

 

[lydian]

Hmm... that's only medium open. I was expecting a 9* to be very open, perhaps 125. Even so, your description of your issues still points to the mouthpiece being too open for you (pitch control and fatigue). Trying the softer reed is a good start, but you may have to find something even more closed if that doesn't help.

In my experience Rico Royal runs a little hard, so a 2.5 may work better. On my Morgan 7, which is about the same tip as your Couf, I play 2.5 or 3.

Are you primarily a jazz or classical player? Any particular artist you're trying to sound like on tenor?

 

[adamk]

I play jazz.
Listening to Chris Potter from an earlier thread and seeing him live with Pat Metheny a few years ago, I'd say he is as good an example to emulate as any.

 

[lydian]

I've seen him live a couple of times as well. Probably the best living jazz sax player there is right now.

You can hear a lot of elements from other great players in Chris's sound, so emulating his influences would also be a good starting point. But if I wanted to sound like him (who wouldn't), I'd stick with your HR Link and a softer reed. But I admit I know zero about the Couf mouthpiece. It may work just as well. Bob Reynolds also play a HR Link and gets a great sound. So give him a listen as well.

I'd also try to get in the habit of using more traditional articulation techniques. As a jazz player, tongue on the reed is the way to go unless you're purposely trying to do something to set you apart from other players. Otherwise, I think it's going to be very limiting and not work very well in most circumstances.

 

[adamk]

Couf has a round chamber with little or no baffle.
Could be classical except for size.

 

[adamk]

My tongue does touch the reed, just not the tip. Tried a 3 reed. Feels about the same as the 3 1/2. I think new versus used makes them similar.