[sugaki]

Unfortunately, I've been having GAS lately. Having a vintage Selmer Airflow that I had laying around for 15 years refaced, bought a Florida STM (which was a dud).

So for kicks I bought a Zhenghao mouthpiece on ebay, since I saw a youtube clip of some guy playing it on alto. I figured if it sucked I can always butcher it and experiment with refacing it myself. I mean $38.00 shipped to my door for a gold-plated mouthpiece, can't get much cheaper, haha. (How the heck do they make money on this thing...)

Got it today, open packaging and I'm dismayed. I thought it was a soprano mpc for a second because it's so thin. Look at the box and it says "bEaltosaxophones" so I guess it's right. Worksmanship seems decent if not simple and crude, and there are some nicks on the inner sidewall. Not looking promising. It's an odd design--the window is gigantic and extends into the heel of the reed. Sidewall just goes straight down. It's a C-8, whatever that's supposed to mean. Looks like a medium chamber with a ~0.080 tip (comparing with my Meyer)

I play my refaced STM for reference, then switch to the Zhenghao. If it plays at all then that's all I can ask for, I think to myself. But it not only plays, but plays well. Extremely well. This sounds really wrong, but it plays better than any other mpcs I've played. Low notes, high notes, altissimo. Edgy yet easy to play (not chirpy). Very responsive down to low Bb.

Not only that, I love the sound--it's what I've been looking for sound-concept wise. With my embouchure, everything ends up on the dark side (not a fan of bright/modern sounds). The only downside with this mpc that when I get loud with this, it gets very bright. I mean it'll cut through anything. It's also very punchy, like a Java mpc but even brighter when pushed. Ironically, it sounds nice and mellow when pushing less than 70%. But it's inevitably bright and piercing at 100%.

My question is, am I "working against" the mouthpiece if I'm playing mellowly with it? I have to be more restrained when playing to offset its punchy characteristic. Suppose as long as I don't push the mouthpiece hard I can be happy with it. And is there a way to have the baffle/mpc refaced so it's not as bright when pushing it full-volume... without changing how it sounds when playing softer? I assume toning down the bullet baffle would make it less bright, but I think getting rid of the hard edges will make the mpc lose the gritty-sound (which I like)?

Regardless, I'm really surprised at how well it plays. Pondering making it my main mouthpiece, and now don't think I should mess with refacing it myself =P

 

[empressdiver]

I wouldn't spend any money refacing a $38 mpc. I would just try different reeds with different strengths.

 

[evan1]

Id love to be a fly on the wall in some of these chinese factories. I bet the same place makes shoes,golf clubs and tv's. They are incredible.

 

[saxpiece]

It looks to be better made than some Dukoffs that I have had.

http://www.zhmelody.com/site/product.jsf?id=001601

 

[RootyTootoot]

"Floored"? Did someone throw it at you?

I'm jesting, of course. Glad it works for you.

I had a soprano new dukoff one time that looked like someone had attacked the inside with a hacksaw. Absolutely incredible.

 

[sugaki]

I wouldn't spend any money refacing a $38 mpc. I would just try different reeds with different strengths.

Considering I like it more than some $300-$500 mouthpieces I've tried, I wouldn't mind spending on a minor rework. I wouldn't even touch the table or facing or tip though, it plays that well.

 

[jlima]

Id love to be a fly on the wall in some of these chinese factories. I bet the same place makes shoes,golf clubs and tv's. They are incredible.

Yes, and these are probably made by children and workers receiving miserable salaries and working too many hours.

 

[windman53]

To be Honest
A lot of the chinese factory is getting more and more expensive and most of the factory in China has teh same problem with the shortage of the labor.

They are getting well pay and did not want to stay in factory working anymore.

but still there are some factory who are so low tech which really did not know how in the world, they are able to make things work.

 

[Stephen Howard]

You can come up lucky with these pieces....though luck is the major factor.
I once went through a box of about 40 tenor metal pieces and couldn't find one that was even halfway usable - and then someone handed me a bari metal piece that I subsequently found to be almost as good as anything I've used in the last 35 years.

Strangely enough they were all better built than my Dukoff...

Regards,

 

[rleitch]

Id love to be a fly on the wall in some of these chinese factories. I bet the same place makes shoes,golf clubs and tv's. They are incredible.

I'm no sure why "incredible"? This mouthpiece is a perfect example of shanzhai or copycat manufacturing, and it has been around for decades. I've read estimates that as much as 10% of all global trade today is made up of knock-offs like this. Shanzhai manufacturing allows small Chinese manufacturers to produce products higher up the value added chain, without having to bear the costs of actually adding value. It takes virtually no skill to reverse engineer a golf club or sax mouthpiece. They can be sold so cheaply because the makers do not have to pay taxes associated with fully branded value added products, nor do they have to comply with costly regulations (environmental etc.). Also, with respect to the conditions under which Shanzai products are made, while folks on SOTW have often repeated cliches about "improvements" in conditions, the fact is that these types of products are often made during so-called "ghost shifts": factories are kept running after their licensed orders are filled, and products are made by workers taking "extra" shifts using cheaper materials, unofficial (and often unpaid) labour, and safety shortcuts. People can choose not to care about this, but there are reasons shanzhai products are so cheap, reasons not spelled out in the official story.

It's also interesting how folks on SOTW often think these products are harbingers of the inevitable emergence of great Chinese brands. It is almost gospel on here that a Chinese Yamaha or Selmer company will emerge, soon. In fact, the ubiquity of shanzhai products actually erodes the ability of Chinese companies to produce stable and competitive brands. This is not only because they are so similar to "real" brands at a fraction of the cost, but also because they continue to cast a shadow on the "made in China" brand in general. Despite massive central government support for the creation of Chinese brands that can compete internationally, there actually haven't been many successes. It probably seemed inevitable 10 years ago to some that there would be a Chinese Rolex, and that rich people all around the world would be sipping as much Maotai as French cognac. Hasn't happened...not even in China! A more likely scenario is that a Chinese company will buy Selmer and--as with Lenovo and IBM--this will undermine the value of the brand.

RE: the OP's question. (1) You're probably "working against" your new shanzhai mouthpiece if you try to play anything other than a horrid version of "Careless Whisper." (2) the only person who likely made any money on that piece was the real estate speculator that sold the factory.

 

[sugaki]

I didn't intend to turn it into a "Chinese products are awesome" thread. Actually I'm immensely distrustful of made in China products, especially for the sax. Don't think I'd ever let go my Selmer for a Chinese sax, no matter how a Chinese sax sounds.

It takes virtually no skill to reverse engineer a golf club or sax mouthpiece.

I'm inclined to disagree. Otto Link for example can't make a new, decent STM or Tone Edge to save their lives (I've tried dozens, they're all stuffy and dead). If it's so easy, why can't they bring back the magic of the Florida Links? Mouthpiece facings have such small tolerances, and typically Chinese knock-offs are shodily remade. But as far as I can see, the facing curve on this (just eyeballing) looks pretty clean. Maybe I just got really lucky, but other Zhenghao reviews were positive/decent, which is why I bought the ZH mpc over other Chinese knock-offs (though they all look like they're from the same factory).

Plus, what is this ZH mouthpiece a knock-off of? Looks nothing like other mouthpieces I've seen.

RE: the OP's question. (1) You're probably "working against" your new shanzhai mouthpiece if you try to play anything other than a horrid version of "Careless Whisper." (2) the only person who likely made any money on that piece was the real estate speculator that sold the factory.

Well it could do a lot more than Careless Whisper. And the real estate market is on the decline in China due to overdevelopment and speculation. =)

 

[Bill Mecca]

if it has the long window, it's probably based on the Rovner Deep V.

 

[empressdiver]

For a different perspective, I know, as an avid tennis player, that the best Wilson pro-level tennis racquets have all been made in China for many years. I own several of them.

China has just recently put up satellites in space and is now preparing to put up a space station. It probably won't be long before their saxes are among the best.

 

[sugaki]

if it has the long window, it's probably based on the Rovner Deep V.

It's not as long as a Rovner Deep V. The closest thing it looks like is a JodyJazz DV or DVNY. Regardless, it's not simply a knock-off of a well-known mpc. I've cross-checked with every metal mpc design I could find (Beechler, Dukoff, Runyon, etc) and it looks nothing like any of them.

Coming from an automotive background, Chinese products don't have the durability/reliability of Japanese counterparts. That said, a mouthpiece is just a hunk of metal, so reliability is moot. At worse, the plating may come off easily, but I don't really care about that.

 

[rleitch]

For a different perspective, I know, as an avid tennis player, that the best Wilson pro-level tennis racquets have all been made in China for many years. I own several of them.

China has just recently put up satellites in space and is now preparing to put up a space station. It probably won't be long before their saxes are among the best.

I play Wilson golf clubs, and, when they introduce new models, the copies are out within weeks. However, Wilson tennis racquets are not shanzai knock-offs, so this really isn't a different perspective. Of course all sorts of top brands are now made in China--this is exactly my point. Can you name a Chinese company brand that competes at the pro level with Wilson? Wilson is neither a Chinese company or a Chinese brand. Needless to say, space stations are not consumer products, and I'm not sure why a massive vanity project on the part of the CCP augurs well for the saxophone industry.

 

[rleitch]

It's not as long as a Rovner Deep V. The closest thing it looks like is a JodyJazz DV or DVNY. Regardless, it's not simply a knock-off of a well-known mpc. I've cross-checked with every metal mpc design I could find (Beechler, Dukoff, Runyon, etc) and it looks nothing like any of them.

Good point...and interesting. One of the features of shanzai manufacturing as it has evolved is that the makers often do "ad-lib" features, so that the line between new products and mere copies is somewhat blurred.

FWIW: if anyone is interested in the nexus being evolving Chinese shanzai consumer culture, a really good book is As China Goes, So Goes the World by Karl Gerth. Gerth teaches modern Chinese history at Oxford U. The book is very balanced and well researched, but also refreshingly well-written and jargon free.

 

[Stephen Howard]

It's also interesting how folks on SOTW often think these products are harbingers of the inevitable emergence of great Chinese brands. It is almost gospel on here that a Chinese Yamaha or Selmer company will emerge, soon.

When I was at Frankfurt this year I saw a sax that was brought over by a Chinese maker - and it has to be said, the build quality was exceptional.
It would easily stand shoulder-to shoulder with anything coming out of Taiwan, and in some cases slightly higher.
In recent years one of the largest Chinese manufacturers of woodwind instruments began to sell under its own brand.

It should be noted too that the Chinese are rapidly gaining a reputation in classical strings.

I think they'll be here, in time - but when it suits them, and not us.

Regards,

 

[rleitch]

When I was at Frankfurt this year I saw a sax that was brought over by a Chinese maker - and it has to be said, the build quality was exceptional.
It would easily stand shoulder-to shoulder with anything coming out of Taiwan, and in some cases slightly higher.
In recent years one of the largest Chinese manufacturers of woodwind instruments began to sell under its own brand.

It should be noted too that the Chinese are rapidly gaining a reputation in classical strings.

I think they'll be here, in time - but when it suits them, and not us.

Regards,

"When it suits them" is precisely the problem I was talking about. Right now, Chinese companies trying to establish national value-added brands to sell to consumers in China are swimming upstream against a tsunami of competition from copy-cat manufacturing that the central authorities are powerless to control. In addition, these companies also now face increasingly stiff competition from foreign brands (which Chinese consumers still far prefer when paying anything close to premium prices). There's way more to establishing stable brands than the mere ability to produce products, and in China the combination of regionalism, shanzhai manufacturing, and the inability to safeguard brand proprietary rights makes this very difficult.

 

[Stephen Howard]

"When it suits them" is precisely the problem I was talking about. Right now, Chinese companies trying to establish national value-added brands to sell to consumers in China are swimming upstream against a tsunami of competition from copy-cat manufacturing that the central authorities are powerless to control. In addition, these companies also now face increasingly stiff competition from foreign brands (which Chinese consumers still far prefer when paying anything close to premium prices). There's way more to establishing stable brands than the mere ability to produce products, and in China the combination of regionalism, shanzhai manufacturing, and the inability to safeguard brand proprietary makes this very difficult.

I'm inclined to agree.
I've spoken to a few horn builders out there and while they have 'dreams and aspirations' and are able to demonstrate quite advanced skills, they've still got their eye on 'what sells now'.
But the process has begun in related areas, and it'll be interesting to see how long it is before it gains significant momentum.

Regards,

 

[evan1]

Yes, and these are probably made by children and workers receiving miserable salaries and working too many hours.

Jilma, focus on positives. At least they have a job and are learning a trade.