[BradWit]

Hello C-melody/C-Tenor/Countertenor owners:

The Martin Handcraft C-Tenor I've acquired plays pretty well, though a few pads are close to being shot (still seal though). I love the sound, even the old asthmatic duck sound. recently I got a Rico Metalite M9, after reading that it's a decent piece to have on it, and hearing the sound I can't help but agree. It sounds great, very tenor-esque while having that nuance which is exclusive to C-Tenors. The problem is that with that piece on, low B and low Bb is nearly a semitone flat playing with my normal embouchure, and that's with the mouthpiece pushed all the way to the bend in the neck. I have to bite a lot to bring it in tune, and I wonder what the cause of this is, particularly because I didn't notice those pitch issues with the C mouthpiece. The rest of the range isn't bad as far as intonation goes, though the top register is a bit sharp, though I attribute that to the Metalite still being a new piece. I play the M9 with a Vandoren V16 2.5, which is perfect on my Bb tenor.

So, what causes such a large pitch problem? I knew that the tenor piece would flatten the pitch, but that significantly?

 

[DannyMetalC]

I wish I could help you more, but I'll toss in my $0.0000000000000000000000002,

Perhaps its an issue of the missing volume of cone? Try sticking some nondestructive stuff in the mpc. to reduce its inner volume, like gum (yikes) or something.

Any vintage C-Melody is going to take some extra effort to play in tune from your embouchure, but that doesnt mean it can't still be within the realm of "comfortable." I personally cut off about 1/8" off the back of my Metalite M7 with a bandsaw so that I could push it on further, but my Conns have the micro-tuner on the neck which is why I did that. Now I just slap it on any of my three Conns, pushed right up to the pre set micro-tuner, and they are ready to play in tune!

It may or may not help you to chop down your M9 a little bit, its a fairly common procedure in the C-Tenor world. Wait for some better people then me to chime in first before you chop anything!

Edit: Also, congrats, if that Martin is in your avatar it is beautiful and you will certainly enjoy it once you get this all sorted out! Welcome to the players of the C!

 

[jazzbug1]

Most tenor MPs have a larger chamber than a C melody likes, especially with its rather skinny column of air vs a Bb tenor. You could experiment with chewing gum stuck in the Rico chamber. If that brings the low notes up, then approximate the amount of chewing gum with epoxy for a permanently shrunk chamber in the Rico MP. JB Weld is an excellent epoxy to use. Make sure your high notes are well in tune before a permanent fix. This sounds really amateur, but it works, as the Rico chamber is too big for a C tenor. Good luck!!

 

[dvdberg]

My Morgan C-melody mouthpiece has a chamber that is an exact match to the space taken up by the neck (and has very good intonation). So, if your chamber is bigger or smaller than the neck bore of the mouthpiece you can extrapolate from there what you might want to do with your mouthpiece.

 

[BradWit]

So it IS the M9 just being that much bigger than the C mpc? I suppose that's most logical, I just didn't think it'd be quite that dramatic. I'll give it a shot with gum or something first.

 

[Dave Dolson]

FWIW, I have two C-mel mouthpieces and a tenor piece that play in tune on my Buescher C-mel. The tenor mouthpiece (a Kessler Custom) sounds the best, at least to my ears. The C-Mel pieces are a Bill Street and a Beechler.

I have cut down several soprano mouthpieces to allow them to shove on far enough, so I know that will work in some cases. DAVE

 

[bruce bailey]

If it is just the B and Bb, it may be an adjustment. I would suspect that the A pad and maybe G are not opening enough. C melody intonation is not perfect and using an alto or tenor mouthpiece won't help. I use the same mouthpiece on my Cs that I do on alto, Selmer S-80 D. Try anything you can find. Check that A pad.

 

[csax]

There is a very real problem with a lot of tenor mouthpieces (when used on C tenors) in that they can make the lower register generally flat, and the upper register annoyingly sharp - in addition to the (invariably) couple of individual problem notes.

I love the sound of a tenor HR Link on C's, but (for me) they suffer from that pitch 'spread'. The high baffle on the Metalites will negate a bit of that - as does the high baffle on the tenor Coufs that I love - I assume by reducing internal volume, as jazzbug1 discussed earlier. The slimmer tenor mpcs, often with smaller chambers, seem to handle the pitch 'spread' much better - but it is often down to trial and error, so, the more you try, as Bruce says, the more you try, the better the chance of finding a compromise that suits you. That applies to alto , C and tenor mouthpieces - try the lot on your C - one will really surprise you !

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Just seen this thread & consequently checked my Martin C c/w Metalite M9 and M11 against an electronic keyboard.
Hate to spoil the party....but it is fine. Tuned to middle C the top end is pretty well **** on, as is the lower end. Being really fussy, blowing the bottom Bb in a "machine like" manner it is a trifle flat, but played as one plays, it is automatic to lip it up (how I loath that phrase...cannot someone come up with anything better?) to tune....nothing remotely close to a semitone, which is pretty well the limit of lipping (ugh).
Not at all sure that the accusation is of large chambers is valid...the chamber size is compensated by the fact that the mouthpiece is pushed on further....hence taking up the equivalent volume from the neck.
Anyway, for whatever reason....my Martin typewriter with either an M9 or M11 Metalite is fine for intonation.
Bear in mind however that I have not checked it against a tuner....I play in the real world with other instruments, not in an acoustics lab....but even I would recognise a semitone out.
What is the date of your Martin BradWit? (Sounds like a character from a novel by Charles Dickens)
Mine is 1929, & there is the chance that any intonation issues could have been cured by then. I have no experience of any Martin C other than mine & cmelodysax's Martin is even later.

 

[csax]

Beeflat - I agree about checking it against a keyboard rather than a tuner 110%. The results of a tuning meter (designed for a boring 'monotone') bear no resemblance to checking pitch against a keyboard, where you can hear the 'beating' when a note is just off...

As you say, the tenor mouthpiece is usually so far on the C neck that the chamber is often 'compromised' (for want of a better word), and then adding in the intrusion of the big wedge baffle - which the Metalites also have, unlike a standard Link - also reduces the air-space.

This "pretty well **** on" value, is that related to the engineering "gnats ****" ? :bluewink:

 

[Captain Beeflat]

In the somewhat genteel Standards Rooms of the better class Motor Manufactures during the 60s, the term "gnat's nick" was preferred....rather prim I always thought...but a standard, accepted measurement nonetheless. I remember that both Armstrong Siddeley and Jaguar used the term.
When nothing in the Whitworth scale was applicable.

 

[BradWit]

My Martin is a phase 2 Handcraft with a s/n 43xxx putting it at 1924 is saxpics' s/n chart is accurate. It seems odd that there is that drastic a difference between horns.

 

[Captain Beeflat]

My Martin is a phase 2 Handcraft with a s/n 43xxx putting it at 1924 is saxpics' s/n chart is accurate. It seems odd that there is that drastic a difference between horns.

Or adjustment...or player.
The only objective test would be to try each other's set-up.
However Glendora CA sounds that it may be somewhere south of Watford. :bluewink:

 

[metaphorce]

I have both a Metallite M5 and a Rico Graftonite B3. The Graftonite appears to be the same length and exterior girth as the Metallite.

I just checked them both on my 1921 Beuscher TT (with a Vandoren V16 2 1/2, as it happens.) Both exhibited exactly the same intonation characteristics: When shoved onto the neck far enough (pretty damned far), I can get everything from the low-register F upwards into proper pitch. Below that, it gets dodgy. The E and D are slightly flat, the C, B, and Bb are almost 1/4 tone flat.

The Metallite has a big fat baffle built into it, which the Graftonite lacks, so they have very different interior volumes. But in terms of intonation, mine are behaving virtually identically.

 

[Captain Beeflat]

The Metallite has a big fat baffle built into it, which the Graftonite lacks, so they have very different interior volumes. But in terms of intonation, mine are behaving virtually identically.

The difference in internal volumes...ie.the fact that one has a large baffle is immaterial. This difference will be accommodated when establishing the datum tuning...the larger chambered mouthpiece will be positioned slightly further on the neck to compensate.