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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all, I have a simple question. Should we be feeling the 1 & 3 or feeling the 2 & 4? And this is a questions for more up tempo tunes, say for e.g. Cherokee etc. Thank you.
 

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Hello all, I have a simple question. Should we be feeling the 1 & 3 or feeling the 2 & 4? And this is a questions for more up tempo tunes, say for e.g. Cherokee etc. Thank you.
I know many times I prefer to feel a fast tune like Cherokee in 2 and not 4 because it is cranking by in 4 and if you try to feel it that way you can sound a bit frantic and rushed. I tell students to feel it in 2 and the difference is immediate. It's more relaxed. Swings more. The ideas are better and more varied, etc..... Since feeling it in 2 is basically 1 & 3 then that is my answer to your question..........
 

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Interesting question ! And I am quite confused by Steve's answer as I would have thought that for something like Cherokee, counting in 2 or in 4 wouldn't be relevant to the important part of the beat.
What I mean is that if you count in 2 (1 and 2 and...), yet still use swing, then the important part of the beat is not the beat itself but the 'and' part of it (so the 2 and 4 when you count in 4).

I always thought that the important beats were given first by the style of the music (with the general rule of thumb that classical music would give more importance to 1 and 3, and jazz, rock, ... would give more importance to 2 and 4), with the additional subtlety of the eventual alterations caused by what the composer/player intend to say. Was that completely wrong ?
 

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I always thought that the important beats were given first by the style of the music (with the general rule of thumb that classical music would give more importance to 1 and 3, and jazz, rock, ... would give more importance to 2 and 4), with the additional subtlety of the eventual alterations caused by what the composer/player intend to say. Was that completely wrong ?
While that's GENERALLY true, tempo still has a lot to do with it, as some songs are simply too fast and are instead going into cut time (I can't imaging trying to count Kim in 4). Also keep in mind the different sub genres. IE Latin charts tend to have more even emphasis across all four beats than swing. Manteca's a great example for hearing the difference.


You can feel the change as the song switches from Latin to swing and back again; even or favoring 1 and 3 during the Latin sections, and a heavy emphasis on 2 and 4 when it shifts gears into swing.
 

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The faster the tune, the more likely you are to rest on the first part of the measure with a new chord, at least until you get used to it - and it does depend on the song too. For example, the melody of 'Cherokee' starts on the one or three for most of the phrases. I think 'Cherokee' is one of those tunes that are certainly '1-3'. BTW, that player in the vid has definitely spent years listening to Stan Getz and it shows. Very nice.
 

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On fast tunes, I tend to lock in on the hi-hat, which is typically 2 and 4. On even faster tunes, I can only comprehend the 1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The faster the tune, the more likely you are to rest on the first part of the measure with a new chord, at least until you get used to it - and it does depend on the song too. For example, the melody of 'Cherokee' starts on the one or three for most of the phrases. I think 'Cherokee' is one of those tunes that are certainly '1-3'. BTW, that player in the vid has definitely spent years listening to Stan Getz and it shows. Very nice.
When I was listening to this duo version of Cherokee I was hearing the 1 & 3 more. I feel it's a little easier in a duo scenario to have a handle on the time when feeling in a 1 & 3 rhythm/beat. Metronome work on the 1 & 3 is a new practice tech for me. i use to always have the metronome on the 2 & 4. i suppose it does not hurt to do both.

These two players have great timing, and by the way Carl is mainly an Alto player, i have not heard him on tenor a great deal. Obviously he is extremely cable on both. His brother John Mackey is world class tenor man. Check this clip of John Mackey playing Footprints, obviously John a huge Coltrane listener.

https://vimeo.com/90821138
 
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