[acmhorns]

I’m currently selling a genuine slant sig on eBay with no reserve. I’ve been selling for over 12 years and I’ve never seen a listing like this sit at this low a price this late in the game. Dealers/sellers, are you finding that there are more issues with moving inventory online (whether on eBay or elsewhere) because people are concerned about buying fakes? Buyers, do you feel gun-shy or do you feel like there’s enough evidence around the internet to spot the fakes pretty accurately? I may be putting the horse before the cart here, but it’s been awhile since I’ve had honestly no clue how much a piece will go for. It’s not a terrible heartbreaker for me either way otherwise I wouldn’t have put it up with no reserve. I just am surprised about where things stand. The market value of a thing is whatever people are willing to pay for it, which I fully accept and respect. I’m just trying to grasp how much these fakes have swayed that exact process. This is not 2007 anymore. What does this mean for those of us who deal in collections and large quantities? Is there a trend of people becoming disinterested in “the hunt” itself? Or is it just that the channels for doing the hunting are changing?

 

[B Flat]

I don't believe the amount of fakes currently around has any impact on the prices of real pieces.
Particularly those on ebay.
You can take a chance any possibly buy a fake on ebay without any real issues, as you will always be able to return it no questions asked under ebay's rules.
I believe an original piece, if in a desirable tip opening will always sell if priced appropriately.

 

[Tranechaser]

Can you post a link to the ebay sale? I may be interested!

 

[acmhorns]

B Flat you make a good point about returns, I hadn't thought of it that way. The value may not be severely affected now but I have to wonder if or when the saturation (and Maybe potential hassle of returns) will affect it. In turn it could be interesting how that would affect newer companies like the Drakes and Theo Wannes etc.

Also Trane here is the link https://www.ebay.com/itm/Otto-Link-...da-Tenor-Mouthpiece-Cap-Lig-Box-/223845764972

( no pun intended)

 

[saxophender]

Don't worry. On eBay, the real bidding all happens in the last ten seconds. Most serious bidders use sniping software. You've got 37 watchers on that auction, and you've already got 22 bids, so it looks like there's a lot of interest in it. I bet the price will jump dramatically in the final seconds. I was watching a mouthpiece just today. The opening bid was $50 and it had no bids with 10 seconds to go. It finished with five bids at $90. And it only had seven watchers. There was also that three digit serial number Selmer soprano sax mentioned in another thread. It was at $908 with a minute to go. It ended at over $1400. I think you'll be fine.

 

[andre251]

I found one on eBay that I am pretty sure you are talking about. It is under $300 and listed as no reserve. It honestly looks too good to be true. So I do think there being so many fakes lately would cause this to happen. That mouthpiece should be over a grand already if it is legit.

 

[pontius]

I think the fakes do muddy up the market a bit.

 

[1saxman]

I've found the ebay market in specialized items like this to be extremely difficult for the last several years and getting worse. The majority of potential bidders are not experienced enough to be able to tell if something is 'real' or not. But the greatest problem is they may not believe that you actually have the piece and are using pictures and descriptions taken from legit auctions. They may not even believe your great feedback because apparently that can be faked too. So, it appears that seller greed and fraud have finally ruined on-line private selling. Its almost like the more pictures you show and the more detailed and honest the description, the more they doubt it.
I have been giving away stuff on ebay for years because it just won't sell. I can't even get offers most of the time.
On another note I have been watching the steady decline in vintage sax prices despite the great economy we are enjoying. The supply of nice MK VIs seems to be endless. However, this decline has been predicted by myself and others for many years. I have thought for a long time that the very high values of 20 years ago were the peak. I think this is because those prices were supported by demand from players who had 'grown-up' with the MK VI and were still actively seeking them. As these players aged, the demand began to slip. Now, its common to see questions like 'What was the allure of the MK VI?' Those who have to ask will not pay those prices for one. It has finally gotten to the point that you can get a nice VI tenor for less than the price of a new Selmer. I suspect this is the leveling-off point and it probably will stay this way for a long time.

 

[whaler]

When I looked at your auction the only thing I noticed is your mouthpiece doesn’t look like it has the higher chamber floor that I look for in a Tone Edge
Great photos. Usually the first thing that makes me shy away for bidding is the crappy photos.
Maybe the market has dropped more because of all the different mouthpiece guys making Link designs. A few look they’ve gotten closer.

 

[Nefertiti]

I'm currently selling a genuine slant sig on eBay with no reserve. I've been selling for over 12 years and I've never seen a listing like this sit at this low a price this late in the game. Dealers/sellers, are you finding that there are more issues with moving inventory online (whether on eBay or elsewhere) because people are concerned about buying fakes? Buyers, do you feel gun-shy or do you feel like there's enough evidence around the internet to spot the fakes pretty accurately? I may be putting the horse before the cart here, but it's been awhile since I've had honestly no clue how much a piece will go for. It's not a terrible heartbreaker for me either way otherwise I wouldn't have put it up with no reserve. I just am surprised about where things stand. The market value of a thing is whatever people are willing to pay for it, which I fully accept and respect. I'm just trying to grasp how much these fakes have swayed that exact process. This is not 2007 anymore. What does this mean for those of us who deal in collections and large quantities? Is there a trend of people becoming disinterested in "the hunt" itself? Or is it just that the channels for doing the hunting are changing?

I'm just curious how long you have had this one? How do you know it is genuine?

 

[Nefertiti]

What about this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Otto-Link-...617216?hash=item1f09df5440:g:PeUAAOSwJJxeJIu-

I have no idea because I have never seen a new one of these.........

 

[Hornlip]

[ . . . ]On another note I have been watching the steady decline in vintage sax prices despite the great economy we are enjoying. The supply of nice MK VIs seems to be endless. However, this decline has been predicted by myself and others for many years. I have thought for a long time that the very high values of 20 years ago were the peak. I think this is because those prices were supported by demand from players who had 'grown-up' with the MK VI and were still actively seeking them. As these players aged, the demand began to slip. Now, its common to see questions like 'What was the allure of the MK VI?' Those who have to ask will not pay those prices for one. It has finally gotten to the point that you can get a nice VI tenor for less than the price of a new Selmer. I suspect this is the leveling-off point and it probably will stay this way for a long time.

Haven't been looking at Mark VIs in particular, but recently I've been looking at vintage horn auctions / prices for the first time in several years & it is my impression that prices are generally lower.

I bet you're right about VI prices slipping as the cohort that esteemed them ages. Not that they aren't great horns, but prices reflected quality + hype. Wonder where the price of a '59 Les Paul will be in ten years.

As for mouthpieces, I would say any vintage 'piece getting $1K is either riding a bubble or is already at the outer boundary that could burst any second.

 

[KeithL]

This is often a difficult time of the year to sell stuff new or used. It's about the time most folks are getting their credit card bills telling them they spent too much money on Christmas presents and/or their tax paperwork suggesting they owe money and are going to have to come up with it or they're getting money back and should wait to have it in hand before buying something.

Often a lot of good deals to be had in the used gear marketplace the first quarter of the year.

 

[Kritavi]

What about this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Otto-Link-...617216?hash=item1f09df5440:g:PeUAAOSwJJxeJIu-

I have no idea because I have never seen a new one of these.........

Offhand I'm not sure they ever stamped the facing to the side of the table. I'm pretty certain it was only on the table. Aside from that , the bright white lettering does not pass the smell test for original either.

 

[acmhorns]

I'm just curious how long you have had this one? How do you know it is genuine?

Thanks everyone for your insights. I think maybe I was just feeling too old fashioned to keep up with all this crap anymore. That is, if it matters to even keep up with it. I tend to believe in just continuing to do good business and ignoring the rest of the drama. I hope that isn't naive.

I do know that Mark VI prices have been declining for a little while now and I think that's to be expected. You can't have that much hype forever. And honestly there are so many great horns on the market; every niche has its day. Our store is a Cannonball dealer and we've had people trading in their Selmers on them for years.

Nef: to answer your question this piece came in with several other vintage pieces (a few old Bergs, a Claude Lakey, some Selmers) from a longstanding semi-pro customer of ours. It is definitely not fake. I tested it again earlier today on a Vintage Reborn Cannonball tenor with a soft reed and got a nice, gutsy, Getz-y tone out of it.

And whaler to your point, yes, it's probably a later USA Link after they changed the chamber a bit. I don't worry too much about that precisely because I try to take enough photos so that people know what they're getting, considering everyone's preferences are all over the map.

We shall see what happens. Again, it's not a heartbreaker for me either way. I just never know what to expect with the market.

 

[Nefertiti]

Thanks everyone for your insights. I think maybe I was just feeling too old fashioned to keep up with all this crap anymore. That is, if it matters to even keep up with it. I tend to believe in just continuing to do good business and ignoring the rest of the drama. I hope that isn't naive.

I do know that Mark VI prices have been declining for a little while now and I think that's to be expected. You can't have that much hype forever. And honestly there are so many great horns on the market; every niche has its day. Our store is a Cannonball dealer and we've had people trading in their Selmers on them for years.

Nef: to answer your question this piece came in with several other vintage pieces (a few old Bergs, a Claude Lakey, some Selmers) from a longstanding semi-pro customer of ours. It is definitely not fake. I tested it again earlier today on a Vintage Reborn Cannonball tenor with a soft reed and got a nice, gutsy, Getz-y tone out of it.

And whaler to your point, yes, it's probably a later USA Link after they changed the chamber a bit. I don't worry too much about that precisely because I try to take enough photos so that people know what they're getting, considering everyone's preferences are all over the map.

We shall see what happens. Again, it's not a heartbreaker for me either way. I just never know what to expect with the market.

The only reason I ask is that this photo:

That rough texture halfway down the baffle seems strange to me. My EB Link and some other vintage Links I have owned didn't have that roughness in the baffle area but that is just a few Links I have owned out of who knows how many they made. Maybe some of the other runs had this. I guess the way to know for sure is the sandpaper test. Some of the other guys on here who have seen way more Links than I have will know better.........It does have the Florida box which is a good sign.

I guess the affect of all these fakes is that I am questioning everything I see. I never used to. I just saw oddities and thought it was something that happened at the factory. Now, anything I see out of the ordinary sends up alarm bells even if they aren't warranted. I'm sure I'm not the only one........

 

[acmhorns]

Haven't been looking at Mark VIs in particular, but recently I've been looking at vintage horn auctions / prices for the first time in several years & it is my impression that prices are generally lower.

I bet you're right about VI prices slipping as the cohort that esteemed them ages. Not that they aren't great horns, but prices reflected quality + hype. Wonder where the price of a '59 Les Paul will be in ten years.

As for mouthpieces, I would say any vintage 'piece getting $1K is either riding a bubble or is already at the outer boundary that could burst any second.

Wow, really well said. I especially am considering your point about the '59 Les Paul because I have guitars and amps to think about as well. BTW Love the Top Hat & Cane logo. I love a nice old Buescher. My alto is a 1949 Big B and I regard it as one of my children lol.

 

[acmhorns]

I just took some pictures of the shaping marks on the Otto Link. You can see the greenish tint that indicates hard rubber. The rough texture down in the chamber is pretty common on these.

The other photos are a "Vandoren Optimum" that showed up inside the case of a trade in. Obviously you can see the detailed workmanship of those paper-thin rails (eye roll). Spoiler alert: it doesn't even play. Fortunately the horn was worth quite a bit more than the Vandoren-shaped piece of trash that came with it.

 

[pontius]

That Link has a very modest baffle (judging from the pics). That might be another reason people don't seem to be foaming at the mouth over it. I like small baffles like that but most people want to see that pronounced clamshell baffle.

 

[dirty]

This is often a difficult time of the year to sell stuff new or used. It's about the time most folks are getting their credit card bills telling them they spent too much money on Christmas presents and/or their tax paperwork suggesting they owe money and are going to have to come up with it or they're getting money back and should wait to have it in hand before buying something.

Often a lot of good deals to be had in the used gear marketplace the first quarter of the year.

This is definitely very true. January is a terrible time to sell stuff.

I have been wondering lately, though, if, outside of the "still in the shrink wrap" collector pieces, the market is starting to level off a bit for the highest end vintage stuff.

Nowadays, there are a number of great mouthpiece makers who are producing extremely high quality work for prices that are significantly lower than some of the outrageous heights that the vintage market has reached in the last 10 years. Given the often-justified fear of buying a fake or, even more likely, buying something that ends up not being what you (and sometimes the seller) thought it was, I definitely am much more willing to shell out to buy from the modern craftspeople that are still here to stand behind their work.

We've also got a greater awareness of non-Selmer vintage horns, massively increased quality from China and increasing respect for the well-established instrument makers in Taiwan. I personally think that part of what drove the vintage Selmer market was the question of bang for the buck in the high-end market for new horns from the major brands. With a lot of new (and "new") options that people seem excited about and more information available than ever before on the internet, it seems like many of us have moved on from the "Mark VI or nothing" mentality.

With that said, I recently picked up a Mk VI tenor for $4200. By the time it was shipped to me and put into perfect playing condition, I'd put about $5200 into it. Granted, this well-used 1968 horn (#156XXX) with silver keys is not the collector's wet dream that Ishimori and Blue Note Winds are listing for big bucks, but it's a good horn with tone, response and intonation that I really get along with. That wasn't a crazy deal, but it was a good price for a good horn, IMO. According to Reverb's list of sale prices for instruments classified as Mark VI tenors, they seem to be changing hands in the $4,000-$6,000 range. Very interesting, given that a quick glance at active listings there seems to indicate asking prices ranging from the low-end of $4,700 and a high end of $10,000, with my eyeball median somewhere in the ~$7,000 range.

Those actual sale prices are much more directly competitive with the prices of brand new horns than I've seen in the VI market in a while, though that does probably correspond with the most recent rounds of price increases on pretty much all of the big brands.

I wonder if we might be approaching a point where collectors are the ones paying these stupid (IMO) prices for horns they don't play, but they are passing up things not in "collectible" condition and people who intend to play the horns are starting to feel like they just have better options in that price range. In that sense, I wonder if the ceiling is still rising (though maybe not as quickly), but the floor is remaining a bit more stable or even dropping a bit on certain vintage items like the Mark VI or vintage Meyer alto mouthpieces.

Or maybe this is just fantasy. It's always been a bit strange to me that we as buyers have been so willing to accept the prices of these instruments when they are obviously not rare. How many Mark VI tenors were made? 50k, conservatively?