Sax on the Web Forum banner

extremely unusual mark Vii tenor : need help

5K views 35 replies 17 participants last post by  jpciii 
#1 ·
during my travels recently in north africa, I met a gentlemen selling an extremely selmer mark vii tenor. first, serial number is M 205xxx, very different pinky table, and S shaped braces. the owner, a pro French player, claimed it acmes from the factory as is, and owned it for 30 years.. after blowing it for 5 min, I bought it.
curious what you guys make of it.
all feedback is appreciated

Musical instrument Glass bottle Drinkware Wood Wind instrument
Musical instrument Gold Chair Audio equipment Brass instrument
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Musical instrument Hood
Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Amber Hood Automotive tire
Light Musical instrument Auto part Motor vehicle Metal
Hand Gesture Finger Thumb Wood
 
See less See more
6
#2 ·
Looks like a modded legit VII to me. The extra Bb pinky table is clearly an add-on, and I don't see any way those guards are original. Would love to know the real story, as these don't look like custom 'factory' additions to me. Also the serial number seems wonky somehow, and I would think a VII with that low of a number would be engraved, but I'm no expert.
 
#4 ·
You may be looking at some kind of prototype that was not adapted in favor of a more traditional appearance. I say this because the serial number is well into the MK VI range (as already stated above). I do not believe that horn was ever retailed or meant to leave the Paris factory, but there it is.
 
#10 ·
Re: This thing real or not??

This is one for Douglas Pipher.

I don't generally believe in " prototypes" since whatever never found its way to production was never sold in the first place. But this may just have been one.

Douglas would know the exact production date, the shop it was sold to and if there was anything Proto-typical
 
#11 ·
Re: This thing real or not??

That one's been on Ebay and on this forum before. I can't remember what the final consensus was. If I had to guess, I would guess it's a Frankenhorn and someone's modified the key guards. A true prototype would be unlikely to have been stamped with all the emblems, and at any rate I think (think! Don't know!) that if Selmer had a prototype banging around they would modify it back to standard before selling it.
 
#12 ·
Re: This thing real or not??

Indeed this was talked about before 5 years ago, Douglas Pipher (not been around here for several days) is the only person whom would know more about this (he has access to the Selmer archives) and he wasn't involved in identifying this.

EXTRAORDINARY claims should be supported by extraordinary evidence and lacking a formal identification ( By Selmer itself) I would be very skeptical.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?355150-extremely-unusual-mark-Vii-tenor-need-help

during my travels recently in north africa, I met a gentlemen selling an extremely selmer mark vii tenor. first, serial number is M 205xxx, very different pinky table, and S shaped braces. the owner, a pro French player, claimed it acmes from the factory as is, and owned it for 30 years.. after blowing it for 5 min, I bought it.
curious what you guys make of it.
all feedback is appreciated

View attachment 233760 View attachment 233762 View attachment 233764 View attachment 233766 View attachment 233768 View attachment 233770





 
#13 ·
Re: This thing real or not??

Well, my 2 cents...... It does look legit to me. Mechanically, it certainly looks Selmer, regardless of the strange added Low Bb (I believe) to the pinky table and the key guards. The finish, or I should say the wear to the finish looks consistent throughout in regards to the pitting, lacquer color, etc. The eBay seller says it was just overhauled by South Florida Horns, who I believe is a member here, so it would be great to hear his input regarding this beast. Having said that, I personally have no interest in VI's or VII's for that matter. Interesting looking thing for sure!
 
#17 ·
I am the owner of this tenor, as you guys can see from the original post, I asked for your opinions because I figured someone on this forum would have at least seen or own one before. I wasn't sure what it was, but as anal as I can be, I found no evidence or repair or re-lacquer solder work... its all smooth and perfect...some suggested a prototype. I listed it for sale months ago and the guy from saxquest made me a decent offer that turned down. so I called him out of curiosity, he claimed he has seen similar Mark VII s with low serial numbers and extra keys. apparently Selmer experimented with different set ups/ designs ... That being said, he was intrigued but the key guards like all of us.. then I decided to have it overhauled since it was in good shape other than minor dings here and there, and of course I was curious to see how it plays. South Florida horns was recommended here and did a fabulous job !! Of course I asked for his input, and he believed its all original..
I recently emailed Selmer Paris with few photos, so I am hoping they will reply with some feedback
that being said, why would anyone fake a Mark VII? so they fabricated S shaped Guards, soldered it perfectly, used a mark VI serial sized picky table / serial number and other bits and lacquered the entire horn? it just doesn't make any sense. might as well fake a Mark VI, its will sell for more..
anyway, the thing plays wonderfully, but the tone is on the dark side.. it seems to like large chamber mouthpieces (using an early slant)
here are additional pictures
best

Musical instrument Brass instrument Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Wind instrument
Drinkware Barware Fluid Glass bottle Bottle
Liquid Drinkware Fluid Automotive tire Tableware
Musical instrument Reed instrument Brass instrument Wind instrument Woodwind instrument
Musical instrument Auto part Art Metal Wind instrument
 
#21 ·
Update from Selmer Paris

I have emailed Selmer Paris with photos of the tenor hoping for some feedback, below is their reply:

From: Milhaud Florent <fmilhaud@selmer.fr>
Subject: RE: Besoin d'aide avec mon Selmer
Date: October 15, 2019 at 1:14:36 AM EDT
To: "'Mxxxx'" <xxxxpa@gmail.com>

Bonjour Michael,
Nous avons identifié quelques saxophones Mark VI principalement des ténors ayant ce design particulier des gardes et la clé additionnelle des graves. C'est sinon un prototype, en tout cas une petite série très limitée qui en fait un instrument assez rare.

Cordialement
Florent

translation : We have identified few Mark VI's mostly tenors with this particular design of the guards and additional keys. otherwise, this is a prototype. A very small limited series which makes it extremely rare.

there you have it, price just went up!! :)
 
#22 ·
Re: Update from Selmer Paris

I have emailed Selmer Paris with photos of the tenor hoping for some feedback, below is their reply:

From: Milhaud Florent <fmilhaud@selmer.fr>
Subject: RE: Besoin d'aide avec mon Selmer
Date: October 15, 2019 at 1:14:36 AM EDT
To: "'Mxxxx'" <xxxxpa@gmail.com>

Bonjour Michael,
Nous avons identifié quelques saxophones Mark VI principalement des ténors ayant ce design particulier des gardes et la clé additionnelle des graves. C'est sinon un prototype, en tout cas une petite série très limitée qui en fait un instrument assez rare.

Cordialement
Florent

translation : We have identified few Mark VI's mostly tenors with this particular design of the guards and additional keys. otherwise, this is a prototype. A very small limited series which makes it extremely rare.

there you have it, price just went up!! :)
The end of your translation is not quite correct. "la clé additionnelle des graves. C'est sinon un prototype, en tout cas une petite série très limitée qui en fait un instrument assez rare" translates more exactly as
the additional key on the pinky table. It is, if not a prototype, at least a small very limited series, which makes it a quite rare instrument.
 
#24 ·
yet, they have exact notes per each sax sold, they should know about this particular one with the serial number, while they still sound vague about this ( they normally can even tell to which shop it was sold and if it were a prototype it would be certainly written down.
 
#27 ·
Love that extra key on the pinky table. I have a bent pinky on my left hand that makes moving vertically down from B to Bb pretty difficult, but I can easily do the Bb when it is horizontally in line with the B and C#. My horn options have been limited to a few vintage horns with the 3 in-line keys as a result. I would like to play more modern horns, but never thought to see if a tech could add that extra key you have. Maybe I will be able to play a more modern horn after all. :cheers:
 
#29 ·
Problem with putting the Bb there on the Selmer layout is that the leverage is going to be poor. Like the low C# key on vintage horns, only probably worse. I think that's probably one of the big reasons Selmer kept the over-and-down layout when introducing the current layout on the Balanced Action, while Conn and Buescher replaced the over-and-down layout with the 3-in-line layout - because they could do it, because they hadn't changed the pivot direction of those keys to achieve the (highly dubious) "benefits" of hinging the little fingers the same way as the rest of the upper stack (although that finger's anatomy and its actuation of four keys are both very different than the anatomy and function of the other three fingers), and of "not muffling tone by moving some of the tone holes around to the outside".
 
#28 ·
Those extra keys were the conservatory or concert options we have seen other horns previously, that is rare but not unique, what is unique here are the guards

I`m an owner of an alto sax mark VI serie 120.xxx (1965) silver plate.-
It has factory options of extra keys- Eb and G# trill keys and F sharp key.-
Is this a special serie? anybody knows about this model?
thanks.-
I have what is apparently known as a "concert model" Mark VI tenor in my shop for repair. It's a 1965 silver tenor with the high F#, a right hand G#, D to E-flat trill key, and a C to D trill using the E-flat palm key. I haven't seen one of these before. Anyone have more information on this model? It belongs to the original owner's granddaughter. He has passed away, so she is unable to get any information from him on it.
All those added features were optional at the time, I believe that the Eb trill (also called F resonance key) and G# trill were one package labeled as "concert" or something along that alley . Most of the "concert" Mk VI's are silver plated. Some players tend to dismiss them because they've been told "they sound stuffy"... I have tried only one alto and 3 tenors and while I don't really found the alto free blowing or open sounding, I never liked Selmer altos, and one of them tenors was a really good, good, sweet, powerful sounding horn.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top