[Mike Cesati]

I played this tune for a couple hours today. Felt like I fell off an expressway exit ramp that was closed::dazed:
MONK is a mind blow for sure.

Main question (first 4 measures) is the harmonic movement for 1 measure is 2 beats of Eb 7 then 2 beats E7 That's repeated for 4 bars.

Listening to the Monk/Trane at Carnegie Hall I was trying to figure out what Trane is doing. I'm approaching it as outlining chords and I hear Trane doing some of this.Modulating through the 2 chords. I also hear him playing scales through the movement.He's burning 16th so the isolation of a particular scale is tough to hear.

What scale approach would work in this specific bitonal situation?? Anyone listened to this?? all input appreciated,thanks

 

[SaxJazz12]

In terms of playing of those two chords--what might work well is using different symmetrical dominant patterns over each respective chord. Finding "one" scale isn't going to really work over both of those two chords per say...although you can play anything if you place it correctly and play it with convicition. Finding guide tones to connect the lines is helpful as well.

 

[jazzbluescat]

Disclaimer: I've never played the tune with a group, but, I've messed with it quite a bit practicing; I love Monk's stuff.
Anyhow, I use regular mixolydian on the F7 and lydian dominant, 7#11, on the Gb7. ___________________________________________________________

Concerning the bridge[this would be a good poll]: What chord do you start with on the bridge? I have two sources, one starts on G7, the other Ab7.

 

[Mike Cesati]

Jazzbluescat and Saxjazz

Thanks for your input

Another words for the first 2 beats of measure 1 you use Eb7 mixolydian and on the last 2 beats you use E7#11 lyd, then when it modulates 1 step you go to the scales you wrote? Sounds logical. There really isn't one scale that works.Trane sounds diminished or Eastern over these chords

I thought the bridge was Ab -7 to Db7 . In the real book beat 1 and 2 is an Ab. On the Carnegie Hall tapes Trane starts the Ab- line on beat 3 and doesn't play the 2 Ab's that are written in the Real Book Chart

 

[jazzbluescat]

Big mistake!

I was thinking of "Well You Needn't."

Sorry for ruining your thread, Mike.

I'm not familiar enough with "Epistrophy" to discuss it.

[I am studying/working on "Monk's Mood" and "Trinkle Tinkle." They're a handful (for me). ]

 

[sjz75]

During this period, Coltrane made a LOT of use of the "octotonic" or "diminished" scale, in which you build a scale out of the interval pattern half step, whole step, half step, whole step, - if you think in the key of C, for instance, it's: C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C - this might be the "eastern" sound you're hearing. The beauty of the diminished scale is that the repeating half/whole step pattern creates a melodic line which can potentially resolve to any note. Using this scale pattern is a very good way to navigate chord changes which pivot between the half step interval (in this case, Eb 7 to E7).

 

[hakukani]

I was thinking of "Well You Needn't."

]

Halfheimer's disease...:clown::scratch::roll::arrgh:

 

[SaxJazz12]

During this period, Coltrane made a LOT of use of the "octotonic" or "diminished" scale, in which you build a scale out of the interval pattern half step, whole step, half step, whole step, - if you think in the key of C, for instance, it's: C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C - this might be the "eastern" sound you're hearing. The beauty of the diminished scale is that the repeating half/whole step pattern creates a melodic line which can potentially resolve to any note. Using this scale pattern is a very good way to navigate chord changes which pivot between the half step interval (in this case, Eb 7 to E7).

Yeah--that was the scale I was speaking of when I mentioned "symmetrical dominant"

 

[Mike Cesati]

Thanks guys,

I played the tune again for a couple hours yesterday and listened to 2 versions. The Monk/Coltrane live record (not Carnegie)I have has an easier to hear (if that's possible)Trane solo. I'm going to transcribe some of that.

I am hearing alot of tight intervals. I was practicing a hexatonic scale for those sections that sounded good

on first 4 bars tenor Eb7 E7 I used Eb E G Bb C Db. I also pay close attention to the melody fitting. There is the b5 interval at the end of the line .On these chords the notes are C and the F# below. I'm mixing both the hexatonic and the melody tritone for now .

What makes this tune hardest for me is the 2 beats of each chord . The movement is quick.
It's really a study in rythym of each chord . I'm making this a project and I'll keep shedding Tranes lines. I'll be getting bits and pieces to see whats happening "as time goes by "( another great tune)

Jazzbluescat, thanks for clearing up your post. Well You Needn't is great too.We can talk about that one sometime as well.

 

[Keith Ridenhour]

I have looked at the tune Sidewinder over the last few weeks and also have the Dave Grusen big band recording of it. For the most part the soloists treat it (the sections that have dominants as an approach chord to the main chord and just solo over the main change. I think the ear hears the main tonality adjusting for the approach chord a half step away and you can get away with using the main dominant scale (or altered) . Also, I took lessons from a guy in SF who studied at Berklee ( Bill Fiege) and he always encouraged me to look for a hybrid scale that might work over the two chords. Dim sounds good to me. I think ( and I don't pretend to have the chops to do Monks tune justice ) that whats important is more melodic approach and what ever your ear leads you into. I've screwed up more choruses "thinking " about what I should do rather than getting into the mind set of creating and just blowing what sounded right. Good topic, makes me want to open the real book and blow. K ( I went to Berklee also but I spent my time fighting a trumpet rather than learning how to solo, I wish I'd been playing sax back then) K

 

[jazzbluescat]

re: Epistrophy/two-beat changes

Yes, messing on the piano, C#7b9 to reg. mixolydian D7 seems to work. Also, thinking of the C#7b9(G7b9) as I and D7 as V7 might put a different light on it. In that case it sounds like the D7 is more resolving than the I, ; "screwed up."

You won't even realize those are two-beat changes when you get into the rhythm.

I'll mess around with it tomorrow. This tune has been on my to-do list for a while, I'm glad you brought it up.

Monk and Jobim are my favs, for sure.

 

[Paul B]

I'll be heretical and say that with Monk tunes, worrying about the changes isn't the point. Not that you can totally ignore them, but there's always enough in his melodies to work with--his lines always have a life of their own, and all the seeds for an improvisation lie within them. Taking a "scale syllabus" approach to Monk seems to me to be missing the point.

 

[jazzbluescat]

....Taking a "scale syllabus" approach to Monk seems to me to be missing the point.

Well, it helps my confidence quite a bit to have an intellectual handle on/for my auditory memory.

peace

 

[Paul B]

Fair enough--you have to do what works best for you. In most cases--i.e. playing with people reading Monk tunes from the Real Book--that approach makes perfect sense. My real point is that Monk never just "plays the changes;" he's all over the map in his own unique way. To really get to the heart of his tunes, I think one needs to take a similar leap. But it's pointless if the whole band isn't on the same page.

Anyway, I think Monk tunes (as well as those of Herbie Nichols) allow for endless exploration. I work with them almost every day, and if my time is limited I'll often just take a Monk tune and play around with it.

As for "Epistrophy," the underlying logic of the tune is that the "B" line (not the bridge) is the inverse retrograde of the "A" line.

 

[Tryptykon]

Fair enough--you have to do what works best for you. In most cases--i.e. playing with people reading Monk tunes from the Real Book--that approach makes perfect sense. My real point is that Monk never just "plays the changes;" he's all over the map in his own unique way. To really get to the heart of his tunes, I think one needs to take a similar leap. But it's pointless if the whole band isn't on the same page.

Anyway, I think Monk tunes (as well as those of Herbie Nichols) allow for endless exploration. I work with them almost every day, and if my time is limited I'll often just take a Monk tune and play around with it.

As for "Epistrophy," the underlying logic of the tune is that the "B" line (not the bridge) is the inverse retrograde of the "A" line.

..and as Monk always said " use the melody .." as a continual resource/springboard
to improvising.

The great Sonny Rollins was around Monk since he was in High School and
that is the main thing he gleaned from being under his direct influence.

Sonny was Monk's favorite saxophonist for that very reason; he used the
melody of the tune - referring back to it often.

Try that more as a way to mark your place in the form.

 

[littlemanbighorn]

I'll be heretical and say that with Monk tunes, worrying about the changes isn't the point. Not that you can totally ignore them, but there's always enough in his melodies to work with--his lines always have a life of their own, and all the seeds for an improvisation lie within them. Taking a "scale syllabus" approach to Monk seems to me to be missing the point.

Agreed. The difficulties inherent in Monk tunes at times seem like they're written into the tunes to force you to play off of the melody.
Plus, don't worry about dropping clunkers that don't work over the chords. If it feels right melodically but doesn't really work on the chord, that works pretty well with Monk's aesthetic.
It always kind of bugs me when people play Monk tunes with nothing but pretty, 'correct' notes in streams of eighth notes. It needs some crunchy m2nds and some odd phrasing.
With Epistrophy, continuing with the notes from one chord/scale over the next one and into the return of that chord works well when played with conviction. It's just two beats of tension followed by release.

 

[Mike Cesati]

Nice posts folks. I agree and the melody phrase is what I have been working. Slight adjustments. I really need to transcribe some of the Trane soloing this week and I'll have some of my questions answered as to what I THINK I hear right now,

 

[hakukani]

Don't forget to do a little 'Monk dance'. during any solo played in a Monk tune.

 

[littlemanbighorn]

Don't forget to do a little 'Monk dance'. during any solo played in a Monk tune.

No, the monk dance goes when you're laying out.

Mike: If you're talking about the Riverside version with Coltrane and Hawk, then don't forget to transcribe the Hawk solo. It'll probably be easier going, and it's a great solo. (I've got in here in my iTunes at work.) and it proves there's nothing wrong with playing 16 bars of slightly altered melody before launching in. As great as Trane is we can all learn plenty from Hawk, too.

 

[Paul B]

I'll be heretical (again) and say that Coltrane is the least interesting Monk player. To me, he's not playing Monk, he's playing Coltrane. His approach was fabulous, but to me it doesn't fit well with Monk's. I wouldn't look to his solos as a way to grasp Monk tunes. Rather, I'd study Rouse, Rollins, and Lacy's interpretations. (And yes, Hawkins too.)