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Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009
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I avoid his auctions as I think his sax descriptions are generally deceptive...I can't believe he has 100% positive feedback with some of the whoppers he has told in past auction descriptions.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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After trading a few emails with the seller, he has changed it to just say silver, vs. solid silver. I tried to convince him to take the C/Eb keys off and take a pad out and scratch the inside of the key cup to see if brass showed through, but he wouldn't do it.

I myself doubt highly that it is solid silver, but weirder things have happened.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007 Distinguished SOTW Member
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I believe these are keilwerth bodies with dutch keywork. I had a concord alto I was overhauling at the same time as my new king alto and side by side the body tubes were identical. The shape of the posts were as well. i think this company did the same thing as D&J did, purchase JK bodies and use their own keywork. Either that or they made an identical copy of the body. I think these are decent horns if you don't spend a lot of $ on them. He is asking way too much money. The soldering was a bit sloppy on the one I had. But so are Dolnets sometimes.They are not solid silver by any means.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yeah, I was dubious on those two fronts - solid silver? Highly unlikely; and how can it be a KW horn when made in Holland? KW made (or commissioned or supervised?) body maybe, but does that make it a KW?

(Discuss, using one side of the paper only, and showing your working .... :D )
 

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And a G# trill key; very late for that.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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That sax looks like a late 30s Tone King, except no microtuner neck. If that is what it is, it will probably play amazing- but since you can get them for less...
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2013
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I have asked this seller about the state of horns a couple of times and received nebulous, diffuse answers to quite specific questions and decided it isn't worth the risk.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007 Distinguished SOTW Member
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This guy had a couple of Kohlert horns I was interested in but he prices his stuff too high for what it is. This horn would be worth a few hundred $ tops. It should price out about half the cost of a good new king or tone king. It would be a nice playable horn in the end but I think they need some clean up and modification to be really nice.
 

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If you like silver horns, keep an eye out for one of the B&S Blue Labels or a Weltklang. For the same price, you will get a horn built in the same style, but with more modern keywork.
 

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I had a Dutch built alto that to my eye was pizzactly the same, including the tone ring under the bell lip. Mine was lacquered brass and I figured it at early 60's. It had two serial numbers one was 4 digit as i recall and the other ?. The name was "American Diplomat" and I figured it was a D&J Keilwerth or Kohlert stencil. It was fairly hefty, had an very nice tone and pretty good keywork. Two friends, one a sax teacher, the other a music store owner, both likened it to a Couf. I don't know "nuthin' bout no Coufs", but these guys are deep knowledgeable players so i repeat what they opined.
:cool:
 

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There used to be a manufacturer in Holland for brass instruments called Schenkelaars, they don't excist anymore. Unfortunately there is not much to find about their history but I have read about them also using keilwerth parts for building their saxes. They did have a German manager aswell who could have been the connection to keilwerth.

I've read about a former employee who started his own repairshop. Maybe I can find that again and give him a call for some info.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Grumpie said:
There used to be a manufacturer in Holland for brass instruments called Schenkelaars, they don't excist anymore. Unfortunately there is not much to find about their history but I have read about them also using keilwerth parts for building their saxes. They did have a German manager aswell who could have been the connection to keilwerth.

I've read about a former employee who started his own repairshop. Maybe I can find that again and give him a call for some info.
I don't doubt there is some connection to KW (I have a tenor made in Holland, and it is indeed KW-like), but I don't think that justifies listing it as a KW stencil. AFAIK KW stencils are always stamped 'Made in (West?) Germany', often with the 'Best in the World' logo too.

xax said:
I had a Dutch built alto that to my eye was pizzactly the same, including the tone ring under the bell lip. ... Two friends, one a sax teacher, the other a music store owner, both likened it to a Couf. I don't know "nuthin' bout no Coufs", but these guys are deep knowledgeable players so i repeat what they opined.
:cool:
They were probably thinking of the Couf Royalists - KW stencils.
 

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stitch said:
I don't doubt there is some connection to KW (I have a tenor made in Holland, and it is indeed KW-like), but I don't think that justifies listing it as a KW stencil. AFAIK KW stencils are always stamped 'Made in (West?) Germany', often with the 'Best in the World' logo too.
I agree, I only remembered this KW thing with Schenkelaars. General consensus with lots of the Schenkelaars instruments is that they compliment flowers when joined on a wall.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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Here is the horn on ebay:


Here is my 1938 "King Modell 3" by Keilwerth (almost the same as a tone king, except for some key work differences), serial 13xxx, pre-overhaul:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Certainly very similar; apart from the bell brace and more modern neck, look almost the same. A pity horns that look the same aren't all the same quality - otherwise we'd be laughing with all those cheap Selmer clones out there!
 

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Forum Contributor 2007 Distinguished SOTW Member
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I think these were probably imported to holland as parts and assembled there. I think they were probably manufactured, at least in part by keilwerth. I used keys from one of these to replace some keys on a keilwerth horn.They interchanged nicely with only some very slight trimming/swedging. the necks look like the new king necks without the tuner. As far as calling this a stencil, it is a fine line. people generally call D&J horns Keilwerth stencils and really only the bodies were keilwerth.
 
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