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Howdy folks,
I have an older Couesnon Monople II alto sax that will be getting an overhaul soon. Today I did a quick check of the neck, which is a double socket variety similar to the Conn design...in other words the inner socket on the neck is really just an extension of the neck itself with a collar soft soldered around (which is different than the King style).

Anyway I did a test with the isolation plug to see if the neck leaked, I assumed it would (most necks do it seems) and I was pleasantly surprised to find it was sealing great.
The downside is that when I snug up the socket screw it does NOT hold the neck.

Given the design here the only way I see to remedy this is to expand the socket on the sax body (probably with a petal style internal expander since I can't see see how I'd use the can opener). But if I do this then I'm changing the fit of the neck...and I'm gonna have a leaky socket, right?

I don't get many double socket necks on the bench and luckily most of the ones I've seen have mostly been ok.

Any thoughts on this?
thanks folks!
MK
 

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Unless I am thinking about a different style of "double socket" neck, the inner cylinder of the neck goes inside the receiver on the body. One very carefully expands this inner cylinder to achieve a snug fit inside the body receiver to make the neck airtight. It is the tightening of the outer sleeve of the neck around the outside of the body receiver that keeps the neck from turning. This is true of the King and Conn double necks I have worked on. That said, I would first try to find a way to make the outer sleeve of the neck contract farther in order to keep it from turning. Other techs are welcome to correct me if I am wrong, since my memory is not clear on these since I haven't had many come across my bench.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Unless I am thinking about a different style of "double socket" neck, the inner cylinder of the neck goes inside the receiver on the body. One very carefully expands this inner cylinder to achieve a snug fit inside the body receiver to make the neck airtight. It is the tightening of the outer sleeve of the neck around the outside of the body receiver that keeps the neck from turning. This is true of the King and Conn double necks I have worked on. That said, I would first try to find a way to make the outer sleeve of the neck contract farther in order to keep it from turning. Other techs are welcome to correct me if I am wrong, since my memory is not clear on these since I haven't had many come across my bench.
Yes this is correct. I in my case the inner part is sealing fine. The outer sleeve on the neck is tightening as far as it will go, the screw is pulling the ears together. Which leads me to believe I will have to expand the section on the sax body to make a better fit...which will of course mean I'll have to expand the inner section then too since I'll be changing that relationship & will be likely losing the good seal it had.
Mk
 

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Enlarging the tenon on the neck could prove to be challenging due to the thickness of the metal. Good luck using a "can opener" type of expander---maybe if you double teamed it? I have not had much success enlarging necks with thick material with the "expanding collet" tool. I can see where even if you could expand the body tenon it could possibly set up a "chase your tail" situation back and forth the get the neck airtight again. That said, my first approach would be to file the slot on the outer sleeve a bit wider so tightening the screw has a greater effect on the diameter. Of course you can try whatever approach you think will produce the best results.
 

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As a side question, did you check whether the neck serial matches the body serial number ?

(If the serial is not engraved or embossed on the neck, then quite likely the last 3 digits will be “scratched in” under the neck cork... only visible when you remove the cork.)
 

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How about a sliver of tin/silver solder to enlarge the tube thickness only where the neck clamp operates?
Or solder some silver or brass shim there.
 

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I would be very wary of trying to expand both the body receiver tenon and the inner neck tenon. It's a critical joint to the acoustics, and any slight overexpansion of the inner neck tenon will cause you hours of repair grief.

The outer tenon only has a mechanical purpose (not acoustic), so I would slightly expand the gap in the slit and screw receiver area with a jeweler's file, allowing it to close tighter. It's not something I would ever recommend on a "normal" neck/receiver setup, but in this case it is a good option.

View attachment 223840
 

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I would be very wary of trying to expand both the body receiver tenon and the inner neck tenon. It's a critical joint to the acoustics, and any slight overexpansion of the inner neck tenon will cause you hours of repair grief.

The outer tenon only has a mechanical purpose (not acoustic), so I would slightly expand the gap in the slit and screw receiver area with a jeweler's file, allowing it to close tighter. It's not something I would ever recommend on a "normal" neck/receiver setup, but in this case it is a good option.

View attachment 223840
The outer sleeve's just stretched out with use. All you need to do is make the slot wider. I wouldn't make it any deeper. Depending on dimensions you could do this with a fine saw blade or a warding file.

My Conn 6M has been approaching this condition for some time but isn't quite there yet; when it is, that is exactly what I'll do.

Do not spend time and energy on expanding this or that, or soldering shims.
 

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The outer sleeve's just stretched out with use. All you need to do is make the slot wider. I wouldn't make it any deeper. Depending on dimensions you could do this with a fine saw blade or a warding file.

My Conn 6M has been approaching this condition for some time but isn't quite there yet; when it is, that is exactly what I'll do.

Do not spend time and energy on expanding this or that, or soldering shims.
That's what I meant, expand the width of the slot, not length. Thanks for clarifying.
 

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Another thought along the same lines as Gordon's idea would be to do a solder "flash" on the inner surface of the outer ring. My mentor taught me to do this inside posts when the rod fits too loose. The solder being softer than the brass would eventually wear off especially if the neck were twisted a lot, but could be easily reapplied when that happens. You could also do a heavy nickel plating on the inside surface, but that would take a while. :)
 

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Another thought along the same lines as Gordon's idea would be to do a solder "flash" on the inner surface of the outer ring. My mentor taught me to do this inside posts when the rod fits too loose. The solder being softer than the brass would eventually wear off especially if the neck were twisted a lot, but could be easily reapplied when that happens. You could also do a heavy nickel plating on the inside surface, but that would take a while. :)
Another option is copper or silver plating either onto the inside of the neck sleeve or outside of the body tenon. Copper especially would not be that difficult to build up in thickness. These would also eventually wear away and need to be reapplied but that is probably preferable to applying something harder that could wear away the original brass.
 

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I would be very wary of trying to expand both the body receiver tenon and the inner neck tenon. It's a critical joint to the acoustics, and any slight overexpansion of the inner neck tenon will cause you hours of repair grief.

The outer tenon only has a mechanical purpose (not acoustic), so I would slightly expand the gap in the slit and screw receiver area with a jeweler's file, allowing it to close tighter. It's not something I would ever recommend on a "normal" neck/receiver setup, but in this case it is a good option.
The outer sleeve's just stretched out with use. All you need to do is make the slot wider. I wouldn't make it any deeper. Depending on dimensions you could do this with a fine saw blade or a warding file...

Unless I am missing something...THIS seems the most straightforward and minimally invasive solution. OP says there is no leak as far as tenon-into-receiver. The only issue being the neck rotates even after the thumbscrew is tightened to the max.

So the only malady to correct is to make the outer ring/collar tighten sufficiently to stop the neck from rotating when inserted....since in this instance the outer collar is not playing any role other than being the tightener.

This would seem the obvious, most simple Rx, no ????
 

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Unless I am missing something...THIS seems the most straightforward and minimally invasive solution. OP says there is no leak as far as tenon-into-receiver. The only issue being the neck rotates even after the thumbscrew is tightened to the max.

So the only malady to correct is to make the outer ring/collar tighten sufficiently to stop the neck from rotating when inserted....since in this instance the outer collar is not playing any role other than being the tightener.

This would seem the obvious, most simple Rx, no ????
There is a downside to widening the slot, especially if it needs significant widening.
The socket pictured looks good, but on many saxes the threaded lugs are very short. The shorter they are the more they are inclined to distort from the one axis when the screw is tightened.
This can compound problems.
 
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