Dolnet soprano 74*** fix or not to fix that is the question

4961 Views 19 Replies 6 Participants Last post by madav, Jul 28, 2016

Yedo sax

Discussion Starter · Dec 4, 2012

3

Hi Guys,
Bought a Dolnet soprano silver plated, no resoldering marks, almost all the silver intact, pads looks bad, springs are far too soft and ofcourse it is leaking a lot.
The serial number is 74***, I think it is a early Bela air.
The neck has this ring on it and the palm keys are hexagonal.
The point is, I played a B, A and G and they are in tune (actually perfect in tune!!!), the rest of the sax is impossible to be played as the pads are in terrible shape, to play the B, A and G I had to use my two hands... Now the strange thing is that the horn has 23.8 inches so it is much smaller than a normal soprano but again, this two and only notes played are in tune!!!
Are the Dolnet sopranos smaller than other sopranos? I know that there is a big rumor about the high pitched Dolnets but, the 3 notes are so in tune.
If you guys tell me that it is a high pitched one for sure, I will repad it by myself and learn about repading, if it is a low pitch I'll get to my repair man.
Any help?
Thanks
Yedo Gibson

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milandro

· #2 · Dec 4, 2012

It’s not rumours about some Dolnet being high pitch but a painful fact.

I haven’t yet come across a confirmed high pitch Dolnet soprano ( I had bought one which I thought it was and I sold it to someone who didn’t mind it wasn’t in statndard pitch) but I see no reason why they shouldn’t exist.

If the horn is shorter than it should be (which is roughly 25” 1/2 ) and it is keyed to Bb, than it is not in normal pitch. It is as simple as that.

The fact that you can play in perfect pitch ( three notes it only ) just means you have found a way to do that by positioning the mouthpiece where this is possible (and you are responsible for slight corrections) to do that.

Should the whole horn be playing you will see it would be impossible to play in tune.

Good luck!

Yedo sax

Discussion Starter · #3 · Dec 4, 2012

Thanks Milandro,
I hope you are wrong

But what you are saying is the same that I thought and my brain. But I mean... I am a musician for a long time and I know what I am doing when I have a saxophone and I just had the mouthpiece half way thru the cork and the first and only 3 notes, there was the 440. What I mean is I know if I am fixing it up or not. But maybe the horn below F goes really bad... In theory the tuning should go lower and lower as I go lower on the horn if that is a high pitch one no?
What would mean a high pitched Dolnet? How bad is it to be high pitched?
Anyone has one and knows the length of it?

milandro

· #4 · Dec 5, 2012

Somewhere on SOTW I told the tale of the Dolnet Alto that I’ve bought and that I had painfully and costlyoverhauled.

First I had serious problems to play it with backing tracks at home. Could find a position of the mouthpiece to play the F#( A) in tune but the rest of the horn went progressively out of tune going up or down.

Then I took it to a practice session with my community band. No way was this thing in tune. My teacher played it too and after a little time he said “ I know what’s wrong!” stood the horn next to another alto and it was much smaller.

He said, “ It’s am high pitch horn! “. I managed to exchange it with a beaten Bundy at a friend’s shop , he sells antiques and the saxophones that he sells are for decoration purposes only.

Later on an acquaintance of mine did the same stupid thing (had the horn, a Dolnet alto, repadded too before of the HP discovery). He now owns a repadded HP Dolnet.

I also bought a Dolnet soprano which I suspected to be HP. I sold it to someone for decoration purposes too.

Unfortunately High Pitch Dolnets have NO indication as to be high pitch.

Then I have bought a Toneking Amati Baritone, when I took it home the horn wouldn’t play right and in fact it looked more “ compact” than other baritones. After noticing the pitch discrepancies I noticed an H by the tumbrest. Horror!

Fortunately, I could take this horn back to the owner, she was surprised she said she had used it in a (big band ) to play two concerts .........must have been concerts for deaf people. She got the horn for free from a dissolving community band.

Then I have bought ,on the phone, another Amati Toneking Tenor. Went to pick it up and by looking at it I could tell it was too small. Looked very well, found the dreaded H.

Another Time I found a Couesnon, the horn was not really playable but I could get the upper part to play in tune with the mouthpiece dangerously balancing on the edge of the horn. I measured the horn , which was about 5 cm shorter that it should have been.

I left it there.

If you are unconvinced that your horn is HP, have it fixed. If it was my money I wouldn’t. Some people have argued that you can play a HP horn in tune . I cannot and the laws of acoustic seem to say that one shouldn’t be able to, but laws can be broken if you are superhuman.

In my experience HP Dolnets are pitched at 457 Hz. In past discussion it was evident that in the Netherlands Dolnet sold HP instruments to marching bands (a member found written records of the purchase from his community band) as late as the second part of the ’70.

Anyway, for some of your more “ free” repertoire found on you tube pitch doesn’t seem to be a serious problem, for that and gigs with a a tuneable instrument such as guitar one can play an HP horn.

Good luck.

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Yedo sax

Discussion Starter · #5 · Dec 5, 2012

You are convincing me very badly...
I like to be able to play in tune so I can be out of tune and therefore, I guess it will have to go to antique for the 160EUR I spent on it from Marktplaats....
Thank you very much for your time and help.
Yedo

Yedo sax

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 5, 2012

Just sold it on Ebay for the same price + shipping, fair...
I hope that I was wrong, feels bad.
You had this feeling 3 times...

MattSoprano

· #7 · Jan 4, 2014

Hi Milandro,

I have a Dolnet Soprano of 25" 1/2 in lenght. I can be certain it is not an HP Dolnet?

milandro said:
It's not rumours about some Dolnet being high pitch but a painful fact.

I haven't yet come across a confirmed high pitch Dolnet soprano ( I had bought one which I thought it was and I sold it to someone who didn't mind it wasn't in statndard pitch) but I see no reason why they shouldn't exist.

If the horn is shorter than it should be (which is roughly 25" 1/2 ) and it is keyed to Bb, than it is not in normal pitch. It is as simple as that.

The fact that you can play in perfect pitch ( three notes it only ) just means you have found a way to do that by positioning the mouthpiece where this is possible (and you are responsible for slight corrections) to do that.

Should the whole horn be playing you will see it would be impossible to play in tune.

Good luck!

milandro

· #8 · Jan 4, 2014

I would not be certain without having played with a tuner, so please do that, after all you have the sax already

nagahiroh

· #9 · Dec 3, 2015

milandro said:
Fortunately, I could take this horn back to the owner, she was surprised she said she had used it in a (big band ) to play two concerts .........must have been concerts for deaf people.

Pardon me, but I can't stop myself from laughing :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

milandro

· #10 · Dec 4, 2015

B Flat

· #11 · Dec 4, 2015

There's a fair possibility that this could become an anti Dolnet thread, which it shouldn't be as they are for my mind an excellent pro model horn for generally a more than fair price.
Although there is a lot of talk about the high pitched models that seem to be less than obvious, those that are not are very respectable horns.
Belair, Royal Jazz and many of those not marked as either can be great saxophones.
I think there is far too much focus on the fact that some have inadvertently bought a high pitched horn, than the more important fact that they are well above average compared to many of the vintage horns.
Having said all of that,
I should also point out that when it comes to thier sopranos, I have zero experience.

milandro

· #12 · Dec 4, 2015

This is an old thread, started in 2012, and I have found, since then, even more HP Dolnets in my now pretty long career as sax trader who has bought and sold in excess of 150 saxophones. So my stance is that I know about buying and selling saxophones and have seen bought and sold more than most people have.

This doesn’t detract from their quality but provides a fair warning to those who unwittingly would buy one P saxophone.

As we’ve seen many times, there are people out there who are wrongly convinced that no HO horns were produced after 1939 and some have never even heard of this HP thing.

B Flat

· #13 · Dec 4, 2015

The reasoning behind my post is that I had at the same time a Dolnet (belair although not marked I believe it was) as well as a Dolnet Royal Jazz.
Both tenors.
Although I don't remember the measurements, I specifically recall one being significantly shorter in length than the other.
Tuning on both was very good.
Perhaps the high pitched models are more common outside of my small country who likely only imported standard pitched models.
But my Royal Jazz came from The UK.

milandro

· #14 · Dec 4, 2015

I see tons of Dolnets over here, we’ve found traces (purchase documents) , reported in another thread on HP horns, there are many, of documented sales of Dolnet HP horns as late the ’70 by the many marching bands here.

I am sure that I have seen, bought, sold and played a few more Dolnets ( HP or otherwise) than most people. The fact that there are HP Dolnets is not a quality issue. Buescher has HP horns too out there and it is not an issue there too, just a matter of concern when buying an unknown horn.

B Flat

· #15 · Dec 4, 2015

Whilst I don't doubt the existence of high pitched Dolnet horns, I feel their image is regularly damaged when constantly brought up.
A tuner quickly distinguishes between the two.

milandro

· #16 · Dec 4, 2015

But look at the dates! Nobody brought this up in this thread, it is a thread from 2012 and the most recent post was a by nagahiroh who must have found this in the archives and laughed at my anecdote!

You obviously saw this too and started ove-reacting about some new post completely unrelated to the matter which appears to concern you and this while this whole thing is:

1) something that you have very limited knowledge and no personal experience about (HP Dolnet horns)

2) an old thread that was revived on account of a completely and unrelated thing!

B Flat

· #17 · Dec 4, 2015

This old thread that was revived, both by yourself and others back in 2014 and again today, was most likely revived due to those who constantly feel the need to remind others that threads on certain subjects already exist.
Over reacting is not entirely accurate, stating another point of view might be more so.
Overstating might be more accurate, but on you part more so.
My experience with buying high pitched horns can not match yours, that is true.

nagahiroh

· #18 · Dec 4, 2015

Personally I give my thumbs-up to milandro for sharing his experience, reminding this HP issue with his humorous comparison.

That doesn't affect me as a Dolnet enthusiast, and I keep looking for a good Dolnet(in LP).

milandro

· #19 · Dec 4, 2015

cheers, and many and very Good Dolnets are also not difficult to find ... well, maybe Dolnet metal clarinets are :bluewink:

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madav

· #20 · Jul 28, 2016

yep, I can vouch for that.. bought a silver Dolnet baritone ages ago, at a surprisingly low price. Played OK when I tested it without tuner), but it was significantly shorter than a standard baritone, IMPOSSIBLE to play in tune with others. As Milandro says it was a weird HP variant designed specifically for the marching bands the low countries..

milandro said:
I see tons of Dolnets over here, we've found traces (purchase documents) , reported in another thread on HP horns, there are many, of documented sales of Dolnet HP horns as late the '70 by the many marching bands here.

I am sure that I have seen, bought, sold and played a few more Dolnets ( HP or otherwise) than most people. The fact that there are HP Dolnets is not a quality issue. Buescher has HP horns too out there and it is not an issue there too, just a matter of concern when buying an unknown horn.

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