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Discussion Starter #1
My opinion of the marketplace was that it was a place for sax geeks like us to have friendly trades and sales of gear, for fun and just miniscule profit.

It seems that some members feel that it is a place to do a side business. For these folks, I think that we maybe need a few rules/ettiquette.

Since I've made my thoughts known in a couple of (probably) inappropriate places, I thought I'd start a thread so that we'uns don't furthur hijack marketplace threads.

I just want to see if we can come to some consensus, get along better, and have some fun.

Okay, FIRE AWAY!
 

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Hakukani,

I agree 100% that some of the junk I read on the marketplace is totally out of line and not called for at all. I try to respect other folks opinions and the whole forum is a great place to learn and gain insight. What it does not need to become is a forum for self appointed watchdogs who feel their knowledge and understanding is so euridite that no other person should question their well established opinion. I have been following the thread from which your thread germinated and some of the child-like exchanges remind me of when I was a school principal. I appreciate the fact that some feel their postings are to protect the buyer and in many ways their intentions are well placed. If these folks want to post a warning, once should be enough and then let the buyer make their own decision. Sellers, don't get in a war of words with some of these folks, you will not win regardless of how well established your position. Your dialogue will be analyzed down to the comma and should one be incorrect, you will be beaten again and again.

I do appreciate well placed insight from the experienced players here but, the ruthless verbal arguments over some things makes me wonder. Offer a well placed, neutral opinion and then get out of the way. Hope things are good out on the big island. :D

Dennis
 

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The most prolific Distinguished SOTW poster, Forum
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edit: based on the other posts here it seems that this thread is a comment on another thread I've not been aware of, so I dump my comments.
 

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Jazzhart, while I totally agree with your statement I have one question; where to draw the line. The genesis of Hakukani's post is from a particularly egregious case. One that went way beyond the pail and made several people involved look kind of silly. However, it seems that the garden variety “I think you’re charging too much money for x, y and z” is also nonsense. If you don’t want it don’t buy it then don't. If you think you have an opinion that matters then speak up or send a PM.
I think that in general one should post something that contributes something new to the discussion and is likely to be useful to further that discussion.
 

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I've put forward these issues with the rest of the staff, and we are actively discussing the topic.

I'll state right now, that in my opinion, it is quite alright for SOTW Members to post a link to their OFF-SITE, Ebay or Craigslist auction in the Marketplace, as long as no attempt at auctioning off the item on our site takes place. I interpret the present rules in this manner, and apparently so does the rest of the staff.

I get requests for help with buying vintage saxophones from individuals on a daily basis, and I know that many have found the horn they were looking for via these member Ebay ads on more than a few occasions. These opportunities would likely have been missed without the heads up provided in the Marketplace section.

This, to me, provides ample opportunities without the added headaches and ramifications of SOTW authorized, on-site auctions.

We will post the decisions reached by the staff when they are available. Of course the final verdict will come from Harri, the owner.
 

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saxismyaxe said:
I'll state right now, that in my opinion, it is quite alright for SOTW Members to post a link to their OFF-SITE, Ebay or Craigslist auction in the Marketplace, as long as no attempt at auctioning off the item on our site takes place. I interpret the present rules in this manner, and apparently so does the rest of the staff.
I don't necessarily disagree with your policy, I just think that the rules on posting need to be changed then, to reflect this. As they are written now, it is unequivical what is supposed to be posted on the board in a SOTW for-sale ad and, without this clarification (or revision) it appears that some just skirt the requirements while others are requited to follow them. This isn't going to keep me awake tonight but I think it's something that could be better defined to avoid the impression of favouritism.
 

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gary said:
I don't necessarily disagree with your policy, I just think that the rules on posting need to be changed then, to reflect this. As they are written now, it is unequivical what is supposed to be posted on the board in a SOTW for-sale ad.
We agree.
 

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How about requiring a FA or for auction in the thread title for items which are not "for sale" but only available to the highest bidder? So many times I see an item I am interested in as FS XYZ mouthpiece & Q#% ligature only to find it is an auction. A number of guys post links to their auctions with a buy it now offer for SOTW members, and I think a FS from them is fine, but I get tired of links to auctions with overpriced starting bids.

Or better yet, maybe move these auctions to the ebay section totally, unless they are for sale here too? After all, no auctions is pretty unambiguous.

Every once in a while I find a serious bargain on craigslist and post a link here. I know how some people feel posting links to similar bargains found on ebay is somehow taking it away from somebody who found the auction on their own. Maybe a ruling on this should also be considered while this is being discussed?
 

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gary said:
As they are written now, it is unequivical what is supposed to be posted on the board in a SOTW for-sale ad and, without this clarification (or revision) it appears that some just skirt the requirements while others are required to follow them.
I agree. I recently saw an ad which didn't meet the requirements. The seller responded after the sale by stating something to the effect that "See, somebody was happy!" :x I'm happy somebody get what they wanted at the price they were willing to pay, but the attitude of the seller really ticked me off. Could we have these things pulled if they don't meet requirements or have them approved before being posted? I know it's more work for overworked mods, but I don't know how else the rules can be effectively enforced when posters can break the rules and sell stuff anyway.
:?
 

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The idea of having all ads go into a moderation pool prior to approval and posting isn't a bad idea.

It will create a bit more work short term, but since a large number of newer members (and a few long timers too!) miss one or more of the posting requirements and have to be notified, threads edited by a mod etc. it may save time and energy in the long run.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Now this is what I call a discussion!
 

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Well Said.

I don't think we should get rid of ebay auctions. I like the idea of them having their own section though. A subforum in the Market place for ebay auctions. I think the requrments for those ads should be as followed.
1) What is being sold
2) The condition of the horn
3) Starting Price
That would make it extreamly easy for people who don't have alot of time to take a quick look and see if the horn/equipment interest them. I do NOT THINK that we should ban the comments on the product. If you have looked through these forums many people who don't know how to use the search button, but scan the marketplace or the new post section. May have no idea, what they are getting, the quality, or the caliber weapon, sorry, instrument. I think that price haggaling should be held to PM. If you don't like the price, and want to get the item. By all means haggle if you wish. Do I think that people should be publicly harrased on here about their product. No. Should people have an opprunity to challange the product openly yes. It is a community of sorts, and in such people will be quesioned.
:blackeye: I don't think a full fledged fight though should erupt over price, or who was right and wrong.:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
 

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saxismyaxe said:
The idea of having all ads go into a moderation pool prior to approval and posting isn't a bad idea.

It will create a bit more work short term, but since a large number of newer members (and a few long timers too!) miss one or more of the posting requirements and have to be notified, threads edited by a mod etc. it may save time and energy in the long run.
I'll second this motion! It will take some work but the probable outcome will allow for a far more uniform, and hopefully civilized, outlet for the sale and purchase of instruments.
 

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I agree with Saxismyaxe, and jazzheart. I would like to take it one step further though. I would like to see something at the bottom of next to the online symobl saying a rating. I don't know maybe blue if it is a zero repuation. Some kind of symbol. that will say some kind of rating on transacations. After the item has changed hands with the money. Both the Seller and the Buyer ask a moderater for a link that will only work once and they click it to give a rating and so on. Howver the only down side I see to this idea, is that the moderaters would have to watch for back and forth trading to build reputation.
 

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Chicken 'Lil said:
Jazzhart, while I totally agree with your statement I have one question; where to draw the line. The genesis of Hakukani's post is from a particularly egregious case. One that went way beyond the pail and made several people involved look kind of silly. However, it seems that the garden variety “I think you’re charging too much money for x, y and z” is also nonsense. If you don’t want it don’t buy it then don't. If you think you have an opinion that matters then speak up or send a PM.
I think that in general one should post something that contributes something new to the discussion and is likely to be useful to further that discussion.
Chicken 'Lil, you are right regarding the garden variety statements and I do agree that point of drawing the line can be nebulous. This, I feel, is where professionalism and tact come into play. If one sees a clearly fraudlent statement being posted then that person needs to state, in a tactful and nonagressive manner, what is wrong and provide a clear point of proof. Hopefully all involved will correct the issue or responde via PM's. Thanks for the support.
 

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We had the rating business here for a while and I think it was decided that it was a nuisance more than a reliable reflection on an individual. Look at what a joke feedback has become on ebay. I think posting a question about any member will get you a review of their character or lack of it. (I wonder where Grumps has been lately, speaking of characters...)
 

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Carbs said:
I agree with Saxismyaxe, and jazzheart. I would like to take it one step further though. I would like to see something at the bottom of next to the online symobl saying a rating. I don't know maybe blue if it is a zero repuation. Some kind of symbol. that will say some kind of rating on transacations. After the item has changed hands with the money. Both the Seller and the Buyer ask a moderater for a link that will only work once and they click it to give a rating and so on. Howver the only down side I see to this idea, is that the moderaters would have to watch for back and forth trading to build reputation.
At that point, we should just pack up the Marketplace and move it to eBay.

I think we should try to keep the process as simple as possible, while still addressing the issues. I like the idea of ads needing to be submitted to the mods first, as long as the mods are willing to go through the hassle of reviewing them.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I think dirty has a point. I just didn't think the mods would want the extra work. That seems to have been addressed.

Then we have to work out ettiquette.
 

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Just a little about the reputation thing:

Trying to assign "rep points" was roundly shot down here when saxpics tried to steer things that way.

The dealers evaluation section I think serves a good purpose in many ways, but does little to address sales by everyone else.

I like simplicity, so perhaps, a simple advert that has to meet the requirements (shuffled to a mod for approval) and then the ad is posted and no one else can add comments to the advert except the seller. Seller can add posts to answer FAQ's that are PM'd to the seller.

On all adverts I say that the sellers joining date on the SOTW be listed in BOLD letters, along with the number of posts to give the viewer a quick background profile of the seller.

There is a lot to learn from this board. Lord knows I have learned tons here over the many years I have participated. I feel a sense of community here too and I want to share what I have learned. That is the teacher in me.
And, through the marketplace and deals with my many friends here, I have gotten to play some fantastic horns.

However, clearly things in the marketplace (and other areas) seem to get out of hand at times. Even well intentioned advice can be taken the wrong way, and sheer meanness masquerading as consumer protection only makes things worse. The argumentativeness for the sake of argument (aka-trolling) and petulance of certain posters has put me off from posting here, and has made others simply throw up their hands and stop-without the requisite YAGE.

I have found myself adding fuel to the fire by responding to this flaming, ranting, acerbic silliness. So I propose that you do what I have learned to do and pledge to do: rather than respond, use the ignore function. Report the flaming sphincters whose posts are out of hand, to the moderators.

The mods are a good bunch here, and quite fair.
and....caveat emptor.
 
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