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Discussion Starter #1
Is it true that Res-o-Conn pads on a rolled tone hole horn create a faster action?

If I use Precision pads would not the action be just as fast?
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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Unless a pad is made of lead, I don't think it will have an impact on the speed of the action of a saxophone. If a saxophone is in proper working order, the speed of the action will always be faster than your fingers. Getting it to feel GOOD under the fingers is where the art lies.
 

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Flat resos with a rivet slow the action down by 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% more than pads with a plastic dome, which speed up the action by 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
 

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OH NO!

I didn't take into account the type and amount of glue used, the viscosity of the key oil used, or the tolerance between the steels and the key barrels and end play between pillars, alignment of pillars, keywork lacquer or plating, silencing materials or the type of springs fitted, the altitude and distance from the equator or current atmospheric pressure, wind direction or cosmic rays.

So the theory is fundamentally flawed and the numbers mean absolutely nothing.

It's what works in practice that counts.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The proper name for these pads is Conn reso-pads. Res-o-conn pads don’t exist. Please excuse me.

Somebody told me that these pads have a faster action than standard pads due to the fact that the surface of the pad acts like a drum.

Precision pads are quite hard and so they have a fast action as well.

Is the a significant difference in the speed of action of these two kinds of pads?

Precision pads are harder to install than softer pads so I presume the reason you go though the trouble of installing them is so that the action of the horn will be faster.

A second question is; Is there a significant difference between Precision pads and softer varieties in term of action?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I should add i am thinking of the resopads in the context of a horn with rolled tone holes.
 

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That the Conn Res-O-Pad with the metal ring acts like a little "drumhead" and bounces the key off the tonehole more quickly is a novel idea. I really think someone is pulling your leg. Either that or they don't know what they don't know in my opinion.

The speed of the action is determined by the lack of friction in the keywork, the tension and quality of the springs, the balance, weight and geometry of the key design, and of course the facility of the player.

Harder pads versus softer pads simply give a different tactile feel to the performer. Some players like the "pop" of the hard felt pad on the tonehole. Others like the quietness of the medium felt pads. I don't know anyone who likes or recommends a very soft pad because of the "mushy" feel and the problems created by the inevitable deep seats they will develop. Harder pads are more difficult to install only to the degree that they are less forgiving when there is play in the keys or a tonehole that is not perfectly flat.

Any good quality pad will work on your sax with rolled toneholes. I have used the white Roo pads from Music Medic and had good results on these saxes.

John
 

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What I'm about to say here is an attempt to extrapolate/justify the comment that resopads are faster. Not sure if I totally buy it or not, but here's my best shot at it...

1) The surface of a resopad is very flat and tight. flatter and tighter than a traditional pad.

2) Resopads do not seat deeply or at least not as deeply and readily as traditional pads.

3) A deeply seated pad on a rolled tone hole will have more contact area with the pad leather.

4) Should that pad leather have any adhesive character to it, the greater contact area would promote more stickiness, thus slowing down the action - or requiring a greater spring tension to lift the pad from the tonehole which would have a stiffer feel and thus slowing down the horn incrementally.

I could see where a well-installed reso pad on a clean tonehole would be faster than a well-installed traditional pad on a sticky tonehole or if the leather, itself, is sticky.
 

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If it's stick, then you should fix that. I have seen gunky, sticky resopads on old Conns.

...something I have noticed, though...the solid silver Resotech resonators ARE massive enough to slow the action down noticeably. At one point, I acquired a baritone sax with oversized silver Resotechs, and had to beef up the spring tension substantially to get it to play. Eventually I replaced the resos with thin, brass seamless domes (very light) and lightened the horn back up. Much snappier response. That said, the Conn resopads are not noticeably more massive than ordinary pads. Probably pad thickness is more significant, but also NOT.

Don't know why the silver resotechs are so popular. I hae had several customers ask me about these since my episode, and have talked them out of it by having them 'heft' the Resotech I took out of the low A on the bari vs. a comparable size seamless dome.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Abc and jbt are suggesting the horn, if functioning well, will always play faster than the player. What counts is the feeling of the pad under the fingers.

Hard pads create a popping action where as medium pads create a quieter action but do create a slower action.

Squishy pads I presume create an uncomfortable feel to the action ie they create a sense of lost motion as the pad takes it time to come to a stop when it reaches the tonehole.

Also, squishy pads with their deep seat have a tendancy to be sticky .

I am wondering how this relates to the kind of pad you choose to put over a rolled tonehole.

Would a medium pad have a tendancy to stick over a rolled tonehole?

If not then the choice would have to do with whether you want a popping feel to the action or whether you want a quieter feel.

Does EZ’s hypothesis have some validity ie could it be the case that the res-o-pad, due to its taut surface will have less of a tendancy to stick to the relatively broader surface of a rolled tonehole than would a Precision pad, not to mention a medium pad?
 

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I find much of the above discussion pretty meaningless unless a very precise explanation is provided for what is meant by "faster action" in this context.

What Chris has said is most appropriate.

What a poor, sad finger it is if it is so much affected by such a minute change in the mass of a resonator that it cannot get the pad closed in time.

For responsive changing of notes, think good spring design, low pivot and linkage friction, Good leverage design especially on 'pinky' keys, and well adjusted pad sealing. Everything else is irrelevant, unless you have one of those old, poorly designed horns where a ('pinky'?) finger is barely able to move the key because of poor leverage &/or where the mass of the key is distributed far too far from the hinge axis.

Did I mention pad firmness and resonators? No!
 

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Gordon (NZ) said:
I find much of the above discussion pretty meaningless
That was rather diplomatic. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Faster action in this context refers to;

a) the idea that pads which are too soft tranmit to the player a sense of lost motion.

b) the possibility that over rolled toneholes some kinds pads may have a tendancy to stick thus slowing down the action.

In my above post the sentence which read

Hard pads create a popping action where as medium pads create a quieter action but do create a slower action.

Should have read

Hard pads create a popping action where as medium pads create a quieter action but don’t create a slower action.

What I meant here is that as I am gathering it , quality medium pads impart a different feel to the action than do hard pads however they are not so soft as to contribute a sense of lost motion.

Abc and jbt seem to be saying this and it makes sense to me.

I would like to bring the discussion back to the topic stated in this thread’s title ie Do res-o- pads create faster action over rolled toneholes than would hard or medium pads?

If the action is not faster, and if res-o-pads do not provide a particular sensation that some players prefer, I can’t see why a technician should bother installing them, other than to create a horn that has a particular antique mystique in the sense that res-o-pads have been used traditionally with rolled tonehole horns.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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Man, Gordo has been hard on us lately! :D

Res-o-pads are constructed differently, and this is a good read to find out more, although I think he attributes a little too much holy-cow-awesome to the pads themselves:

http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Conn_Res-O-Pads.html
 

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Thanks Matt for that link. There is some good history about the pads there. This is the statement from that site that I think would be the most difficult to prove.

"...there are almost no rim impressions to promote sticking and slow your action (rim impressions act like tiny suction cups, especially when your pads are moist - think about it), and the musical performance characteristics (tonal character, intonation and response) of the sax are maximized."

He may be talking about the impressions (seats) of the pads on rolled toneholes, but nevertheless "tiny suction cups"? I am not convinced that a pad with a deeper seat makes the key raise more slowly when released that a pad with a shallow seat when neither is sticking to the tonehole damp or not. Oh well opinions are like mouthpieces, every sax player has way too many.
 

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The tone hole chimney is an open tube. You won't get suction on one end of a tube if the other end is open, at least not one as short as a tone hole chimney. Or will you? I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 

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While that statement is a bit overblown, less contact area minimizes the effect of adhesion. Tight, flat pads without deep tonehole impressions touch a tonehole less. It's really as simple as that.

There are about 117 particulars of a horn's set up that are more important than this, by the way.
 

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Picture a tone hole edge going into a very deep groove in the pad. The pad is damp. The sides of that deep groove are hugging both the inner and the outer sides of the tone hole wall. so when the pad and the deep groove are separated, suction is formed in the bottom of the groove, until air can get into that space.

If this effect is what is meant, then it would happen only with excessively deep seating grooves, and would happen with both rolled and unrolled tone holes.
 
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