[JL]

(1) To his ears, the tone of the carbon fibers lacks focus, and is not centered enough;

(2) He describes the tone as being too thin and buzzy -- too-heavily weighted toward the higher partials, and light in the mid- and low-frequency harmonics which give fullness to the tone.

(3) He contends that current mouthpieces, including the one that I play on (Morgan Excalibur) were specifically designed to be played with cane reeds, and they do not respond in the same manner
with synthetic reeds. Hence, intonation suffers, particularly in the high register.

(4) He uses the fact that he doesn't know of any pros that play synthetics, as corroborating evidence that they are inferior to cane.

Saxkat, looking at this, I'd say your teacher, who's job it is to help you sound and play better, may have a valid argument on points 1 through 3. If he is hearing your tone quality suffer when you use synthetic reeds, then he is right to ask you to use cane (assuming you actually sound better on cane). Where I think he is "wrong" is in bringing up what the pros use. A "name" pro player would probably sound good on most reeds, mpcs, horns, etc. They might not sound as good on one as another, but they'd still sound fine on most brands. So what a pro uses or doesn't use is not all that useful to you. What your teacher observes may be important so I wouldn't discount it entirely. Ultimately it will be your own decision, but I'd still take what your teacher says seriously, at least in the short term.

I've had the same experience as Razzy and some other posters here. I've tried synthetics, even thought for a while that I sounded better on them, then grew dissatisfied with my sound and the response of the synthetics and went back to cane.

 

[cornific]

http://www.legere.com/science.htm

i found this page of the legere website quite interesting. i could relate to the chart found mid page. the yellow tracing reminds me of why i quit synths years ago. if the legere claims are true, i will give these reeds a try,

for the kind of playing that i do ... lots, hard and often hours at a stretch i may have to invest heavily to get going on them i think i will need to have three in rotation for each size horn. sop alto tenor and two for bari ... hmmm 200 + dollars right there. i'll start with a couple for tenor to check them out. i am rotating cane reeds as it is, two or three at a session for tenor as it is easy to play them out if i don't.

i live in a very dry climate in the winter time and having synths may help me with my doubling hassles. it takes about five minutes for a reed to dry up in winnipeg during the winter.

this is one more reason to get a refaced bari mp for my bass ... i don't think the legeres are manufactured in bass sizes. but i will ask anyway, if i make it to eastern ontario i may try and find the factory ... very interesting indeed

 

[MojoBari]

You do not need to rotate synthetic reeds. But it is nice to have a few so you have some harder/softer ones to go to.

 

[Roger Aldridge]

Mojo -- A Legere reed need to be rotated after playing hard on one for around an hour as it softens somewhat. Guy Legere talks about that on the Legere web site. When I'm playing a gig I rotate my Legere reeds after each set. I've found this to work fine. A used Legere reed returns to its original strength after a period of rest. I've played on Legere reeds 2 hours on occassion and had no noticable problems. Never the less, I use 1 hour as a rule of thumb as Guy Legere recommends. With this approach Legere reeds last a very long time. I've been using the ones in my reed case for at least 3 months and they show no signs of wearing out.

Cornific -- The first step is to determine which Legere reed strength is the best match for you. Legere reeds may or may not have a comparable strength as your cane reeds. Also, you might need to spend a period of time to become comfortable with how Legere reeds play. It took me around two weeks of heavy sheding to adapt my chops to them. Legere has a good refund/return policy. If you try a Legere reed and flat out don't like it you can send the reed to the Legere company and get a refund. Also, if the reed you try is too soft or too hard, you can send it back for a different strength. You're only out for the postage.

I've been using Legere reeds for more than a year. Given how picky I am about my equipment, if Legere didn't give me the quality of sound that I want I would have tossed them long ago. Never the less, one thing I've discovered is that Legere works better on some mouthpiece facings than on others. Someone who knows more about mouthpieces and reeds will need to figure out WHY. I can only experiment and determine the best match for me as a player and my particular equipment.

As a quick example, I'm a huge fan of the Morgan 3C saxophone mouthpiece. However, for the life of me, I was not able to get Legere reeds to have a decent sound on that mouthpiece. Understand that I tried a number of Legere reed strengths on the 3C. None of them sounded good to me and I finally give up. I then tried other Morgan facings, including the 5L and 6L, and had better results with a larger tip opening. But, I was still not entirely happy. Then, I hit the MOTHER LODE with a #2.5 Legere (regular cut) on a Morgan 6C! Legere reeds on this mouthpiece have a stunningly beautiful sound and superb response. This set up really does it for me.

I'm not able to explain why Legere did not work for me on the 3C but great on the 6C. I suspect that it's something at a subtle level between the reed profile and the mouthpiece facing. Any insights into that Mojo?

Good luck!

Roger

 

[cornific]

thanks for going into this

i am playing more aggressive styles onstage but working on the legit and controlled elements in my studies. i am working on expanding my altissimo both in a controlled vein but also in terms of emotionally expressive sounds. i of course will start one reed at a time and i wonder how many sotw'ers have experience with legere reeds. also any mouthpiece re-facers who might have experience with this.

for years i have been trying out different reeds. i keep up ending up with rico royals. none the less i am not really satisfied with them. part of it is availability in my community. i am playing alexanders. these seem to warp into the lay after about an hour. i need to spend some serious time on figuring this problem out.

the idea of a synths that has similar characteristics to real cane is very appealing. there are a couple of dealers in my home town so i will give them a go and see if they are the way to go for me.

i would really like to double more and worrying about the reeds drying up really make me limit myself to two horns a gig

 

[cornific]

thanks for going into this

As a quick example, I'm a huge fan of the Morgan 3C saxophone mouthpiece. However, for the life of me, I was not able to get Legere reeds to have a decent sound on that mouthpiece. Understand that I tried a number of Legere reed strengths on the 3C. None of them sounded good to me and I finally give up. I then tried other Morgan facings, including the 5L and 6L, and had better results with a larger tip opening. But, I was still not entirely happy. Then, I hit the MOTHER LODE with a #2.5 Legere (regular cut) on a Morgan 6C! Legere reeds on this mouthpiece have a stunningly beautiful sound and superb response. This set up really does it for me.

I'm not able to explain why Legere did not work for me on the 3C but great on the 6C. I suspect that it's something at a subtle level between the reed profile and the mouthpiece facing. Any insights into that Mojo?

i am playing more aggressive styles onstage but working on the legit and controlled elements in my studies. i am working on expanding my altissimo both in a controlled vein but also in terms of emotionally expressive sounds. of course i will start this investigation one reed at a time. i wonder how many sotw'ers have experience with legere reeds. also any mouthpiece re-facers who might have experience with the subtleties of the issues mentioned.

for years i have been trying out different reeds. i keep up ending up back with rico royals. none the less, i am not really satisfied with them. part of it is availability in my community. i am playing alexander superials. these seem to warp into the lay after about an hour or so/ as do my royals. i need to spend some serious time on working this problem out.

the idea of a synth reed that has similar characteristics to real cane is very appealing. there are a couple of dealers in my home town so i will give them a go and see if legeres are the way to go for me.

i would really like to double more and worrying about the reeds drying up really make me limit myself to two horns a gig

 

[MojoBari]

I can see if you notice synth reeds going soft that rotation can be used to help. I mostly use Fibracells on saxes. They get a little soft after 20 minutes. I just start with a slightly stiff Fibracell if this is a problem.

On sop clarinet I use Legeres. I do not detect that they get soft. I probably just adapt or I do not play continuously enough to notice it. I would not rotate them because with the few duplicate Legeres I have, they vary significantly in strength. Like a 1/4 strength. I have a 3.25 that is stiffer than a 3.5. Maybe I just have a clunker.

I have measured several Morgans but not any of his "C" line. I would think he trys to use the same type of facing curve on all of his pieces and just scales his concept. That is what I think I see in his Jazz mouthpieces.

If you want me to analyze your Morgan #C mouthpieces I will at no charge. But we may not get enough clues unless we see several of each type.

I presume you use a stiffer Legere on a 3C than you would on a 6C. It could be how the soft reed has a different cut compared to the hard reed. The "problem" could be in the reed cut or the mouthpiece facing or both. But I think it is just as simple as the 2.5 Legere has the feel and sound you like on sax. You just need to match a tip opening to the reed.

I like 2.5-3 Fibracells and do a similar tip matching to get a set-up I like. I do not know of a facing curve that favors cane vs synth. Some high tip baffles chirp on cane but not on Fibracells. But that is not a facing curve issue.

 

[Rackety Sax]

I'm using them quite a lot for classical playing on bari lately. I'm spending more time playing and less time fussing.

I may even do some recording with them...

Do you mean Legeres Merlin?

 

[queperknuckle]

Have some respect for your teacher. He's trying to give you his honest advice - would you rather him keep his mouth shut so you can be happy. Buy a box of cane reads and use them in class; use the synths at home. Show the guy some respect.

 

[Overtoner]

http://www.fiberreed.de/webshop/shop_content.php/coID/12/product/References---Artists

 

[themacintrasher]

Jackie McLean

Ernie fricken Watts!

 

[andrewfrankhouse]

Radnofsky at NEC plays Legere almost exclusively.

 

[stormott77]

Thanks Saxman, and all who have responded to my initial post. Your comments have been very helpful to me, as I have been searching for a tactfull way to tell my teacher that I want to stick with my synthetic reeds, without alienating him.

LIke most pros, my teacher has pretty incredible ears, and if he is hearing undesireable things in my tone that he associates with synthetic reeds, then far be it for me to say that he's wrong. However, not everyone's tonal concept is the same, and many other people (myself included) seem to like my sound the way it is.

Your sound is a very personal thing -- like your voice. Is everyone going to like it? No. Does everyone like David Sanborn's sound? Probably not. Now, I'm not comparing myself to David Sanborn, I'm just trying to illustrate a point -- that no matter how accomplished and successful you are as a saxophone player, your sound won't necessarily be pleasing to everyone. Such is the nature of music, for better or worse.

I think as sax players, we are always striving to improve our sound. Most of the time, our teachers support us in our efforts to do this, and we try to follow their advice. There comes a time, however, when you have to put aside what others tell you to do, no matter how well-intentioned they may be, and listen to your own voice.

Those are some of my thoughts right now...I don't know how this will play with my teacher, but thanks to all for your helpful suggestions.

-- Saxkat

No matter how good the synth reed is it will always lack a little in the frequence department. I have tried every synth reed out and recorded myself. They are usually very consistant, loud and easy to play but cane reeds just have more depth to the tone. I use synth reeds when I double when its dry out so I don't have to worry about my reeds warpping but I wouldn't be caught dead for a studio gig with a synth reed.

 

[daigle65]

...No matter how good the synth reed is it will always lack a little in the frequence department...... They are usually very consistant, loud and easy to play but cane reeds just have more depth to the tone.....

Ditto.
That being said, I have had students who played with synthetics and I did not impose my opinion on them.
I even had one beginning clarinet student who became so frustrated with cane reeds, (he would change reeds 3 or 4 times in a lesson) that I suggested he try a Légère. He didn't like it. He eventually got used to cane.

 

[Roger Aldridge]

I'd like to circle back to Saxkat as it's been awhile since I posted on this thread.

It's been my personal experience that Legere reeds do not do well on SOME Morgan facings. In the last message I posted on this thread I described how I finally found a good match with a #2.5 regular Legere and my Morgan 6C mouthpiece on tenor.

Since then, I sent my 6C back to the Morgan shop last year -- enclosed a new Legere reed with mouthpiece -- and I asked Erik Greiffenhagen to see he could adjust the 6Cs facing in order to have an optimal match with Legere reeds. That's why I included a new Legere reed with the mouthpiece. When the mouthpiece came back from Erik it completely blew my mind. My goodness, what a BEAUTIFUL quality of sound and superb response! The way the mouthpiece worked for me was beyond my expectations. Finally, the icing on the cake was switching to an Optimum ligature (using plate #1). It brought out even more vibrancy in the 6Cs sound. I'm completely happy with this set up.

The point is, if one is serious about using synthetic reeds it may take some effort to fine tune their set up in order to have a good match between all of the parts. Whatever Erik did in his adjustments to my mouthpiece, it made a completely night-and-day difference.

As I mentioned before, Legere reeds work beautifully on Walter Grabner's clarinet mouthpiece facings. So, I was pretty much ready to go with Legere reeds on clarinet and bass clarinet when I switched to his mouthpieces.

Please understand that I'm not recommending that folks change their whole set up in order to use a synthetic reed. In many cases that's not necessary. For me, when I made a thought-out decision to switch to Legere reeds and use them exclusively (after seeing just how good they can sound) I also decided to see what it would take to get the optimal results with them. As folks on the forum know, I have a reputation for being picky about my sound. I can truthfully say that with the set ups I pieced together (through trial & error) on each of my horns I'm definitelly happier with the quality of my sound then when I used cane reeds.

**** I have no investment or business relationship with Legere. I use the reeds because they work for me. ****

Roger

 

[MartinMods]

Ernie Watts plays synthetic reeds.

 

[IL Dangerous IL]

When i met Paquito D'Rivera he said he played on synthetic reeds. Ricos. I cant recall maybe the were the plasticovers.

 

[themacintrasher]

I've been playing a BARI medium on alto for about 2 weeks now. Works pretty killer. I'm using a BARI mouthpiece though.

 

[lyricon]

Hey! new member and it's 2011... I've read every post here and my problem now is this ~ For some reason way back in mid 90s I developed an allergic reaction to cane (my lower lip became a bloody piece of ham and the doc said "Obviously it's what comes in contact with your lip") so I switched to a synthetic reed. (and healed in a couple weeks) I tried all of them that were available (the ones mentioned) and ended w/ the fibracells. I liked them and recorded with them until about 2005 when they became just another hit or miss reed. I again tried many different synth reeds and settled on trying to trim and sand the fibracells (a much more expensive proposition). I was unaware of the Hahn reeds at that point. In 2008 I got one a really liked it so I played those for a year or so until Tim at Sax Alley couldn't get them anymore. After fibracell sanding again I found the Hahns online and tried them again. They are a whole different reed now and don't work for me at all so, with hesitation, I bought a few boxes of cane reads. My lip started falling apart again!!!! What is there to do now???? Anyone? I'm looking at a couple hundred used fibracells here. Most of them have been trimmed and sanded into oblivion. I've tried many different mpcs but that hasn't helped at all either. For a lifelong pro player I feel that this situation can't continue as it is since I spend my time trying to get a sound and not practicing or learning material. I'm not even in shape chopswise... Jeez!... I just read this rambling mess! I'm posting it anyway. Can you feel the frustration? ~ sorry ~

 

[Tony5175]

On the Rico website it says Dave Koz uses plasticovers