[turf3]

Two videos:

at 1:02:22 see Harry Edison:

at 08:07 see Clark Terry:

No flying fingers, no bobbing and weaving, nothing except standing there.

Anyone have insight on how the "cool" posture and demeanor of standing quietly while ripping off killer lines and high notes, changed to that of moving and emphasizing the difficulty of what one's doing?

Having grown up in the era of lots of body movement, there's something appealing in these guys just standing there, like "yeah, what? this isn't so tough". Stiff upper lip and all that, what?

 

[AddictedToSax]

Think of the Beatles, Queen, Led Zeppelin. Rockers that just stood there and played. I skipped Who and the Stones. Jagger, Roger Daltry and Pete Townsend did some running around on stage and I guess Freddy Mercury did some too but it wasn't tightly choreographed like today.

By the 90s the boy bands were all choreographed and the instruments were backstage. Today if you aren';t dancing around the stage with a corps of professional dancers surrounding you, you ain';t a star.

Times change, styles change. Acts like Leo P and Grace Kelly are just part of the modern ethos that prefers rhythm and movement over virtuosity. At least that';s my old-guy-out-of-popular-culture-for-thirty-years take on it.

 

[rcpayne]

Some people can't decide if they are dancers or musicians. Seriously, I find the bobbing and weaving distracting. It's corny and that's a fact.

 

[lesacks]

Isn't it just technology?
The single mic gave rise to the crooner - good looking ones, with closeup TV.
Then multiple mics, mixing desks, radio, more mobile TV cameras all the way through to stadium shows with big screens or web video... All put the musicians front, center and in the audience's face.

 

[ving]

Great topic! I’ve discussed this a bunch with a friend of mine. I find the moving distracting too, and I think for certain players who are my age or younger (I’m 46) the moving has become synonymous with what they perceive as a “deep” performance. Unfortunately, I do think audiences respond to this even if it isn’t contributing musically to a better performance. Bad news for people like me who stand there like a rock...

 

[HeavyWeather77]

Times change, styles change. Acts like Leo P and Grace Kelly are just part of the modern ethos that prefers rhythm and movement over virtuosity. At least that';s my old-guy-out-of-popular-culture-for-thirty-years take on it.

I agree with your point overall, no doubt. I'm gonna play devil's advocate a bit for Leo and Grace because I know them and think highly of them.

While they're a fair bit younger than I am, we're on different sides of the same generation, essentially: I'm what you might call an "elder Millennial" and they're, well, younger Millennials. For all of us, we worked our butts off to get good at music in an era when the recording industry had collapsed, the economy had collapsed, and prospects for young folks who wanted to be professional musicians were bleak, no matter how good they are at the "playing music" part of it.

Leo and Grace are extroverts, and when they started to see how YouTube and Instagram could be used to build a global public presence as a creative musician, they embraced it wholeheartedly. They saw opportunity in a very, VERY bleak landscape. It worked for them. I could and would never have been able to do what they did because I'm just not like that: I can't feel authentic doing stuff like that. They can, and I'm very happy for their fame and success because they both deserve it. They've worked hard for years, they can REALLY play, and they're lovely people to hang with.

I'm more hopeful now than I was in 2010 about the future of music and careers in this field. It's still recovering from the Great Collapse, and income inequality is a massive issue in every industry, but things seem to be moving in the direction that rewards artists for embracing their genuine weirdness. I'm OK with that!

 

[turf3]

There are a couple of versions of this:

1) Stand stock still
2) Move with one's instrument
3) Choreographed dance moves.

I'm really talking about how in one generation it apparently was cool to do (1) and "make it look easy" and in the next it was (2) that was cool.

(3) has always been present, from Glenn Miller's bone section and their choreographed slide waving, to Pete and Roger's knee-slides and mike swinging, the Motown performers, and Leo P and Grace Kelly.

 

[theneighbordubh]

There's also standing still and killing it while choreographed dancers flail around and what not. But whatever the case, there are a million different types of shows. Some people go for the music, some for the visual, some both. Some just do drugs

 

[Tryptykon]

You know what I say ? Who cares ? Go have a glass of pino grio .. go to bed, or something ...

 

[ving]

I actually would consider Leo P and Grace Kelly in a different category altogether, more performance art than just a musical performance. What came to mind initially was jazz performances with players doing a lot of moving; that’s what I find offputting, sometimes it seems premeditated and contrived. But, to each their own! I suppose if moving a lot gets you gets you closer to a flow state of expression, who am I to criticize?��

 

[ving]

(Before anyone takes that the wrong way, not to say that Leo P and Grace Kelly AREN’T jazz performances, just that obviously the dance moves are part of their performance).

 

[turf3]

You know what I say ? Who cares ? Go have a glass of pino grio .. go to bed, or something ...

I'm not upset, are you?

Just wondering if anyone could shed light on the change in attitudes over the years. Apparently you cannnot do so, which is OK, but I don't get the reason for the thinkly veiled attack.

 

[chknbon]

I can't watch Richard Elliot videos, even though I think his playing is fine. He looks like he's tea-bagging someone at times. Too much gyrating for my tastes.

 

[Tryptykon]

I'm not upset, are you?

Just wondering if anyone could shed light on the change in attitudes over the years. Apparently you cannnot do so, which is OK, but I don't get the reason for the thinkly veiled attack.

turf, no.. not upset and no attack was intended .

I can't speak to the 'attitude' behind why other players use more body english to get their musical statements out than
others, but it's not something I've given too much thought to either .

If the music sounds good to my ears that's more than enough -- the individual's physical delivery of it is not a big deal .

Some move around, some don't .. so what ?

 

[1saxman]

You do what you have to do when you play. Anybody not liking it can f'orf.

 

[adamk]

Most of the time at gigs I have a keyboard in front and a percussion table behind, no place to move.

 

[saxsearay]

and then there's James Carter who has to move and rip at the same time.

 

[turf3]

Just to clarify, I'm not ragging on people who move around while playing (I am one), nor on those who add choreographed dance moves (Leo P). I was hoping to see some insight into whether there was a period where "cool" performance, making it look easy, was a predominant aesthetic, as implied by the two videos I linked. (And by the way, both videos have some great music.)

 

[10mfan]

As a player, I am the guy who closes his eyes and just plays, because I can focus on the music that I am hearing and feeling.
I do not want to be bothered by keeping my eyes open and seeing people doing different things where I could focus off of the music. That’s just me. I’ve always been like that. As soon as the mouthpiece hits my mouth, my eyes close.

I’ve always been drawn to people that just stand there and play. Miles, Phil, Dex, Stan, etc, etc..
This list would include just about every famous jazz player out there, with a few exceptions.
I have nothing against others that dance around, I just don't NEED it to make me feel theres something good going on.
Music for me personally, has been more about what I am hearing, rather than what I am seeing.
Energy in music for me doesn’t come with someone bouncing around the stage. It comes right from the heart of the music.

There is a famous story about Dizzy Gillespie when he was playing at a nightclub, and during one of the songs he ran out of the club. One of the bandmembers went to find out where he went, and he found him walking up the street. The guy asked him if he was OK and why he left? Dizzy told him that it was swinging so hard, he physically couldn’t take it.

I love that story!!!!!!!!

Excitement and energy for me, has always been about the music and not the dancing around. Everybody has different feelings for what they like, but that’s how I feel about it. You can stand there as still as a stone, and if the music is great, the music is great. Content over visual for me.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Seriously, I find the bobbing and weaving distracting. It's corny and that's a fact.

Surely it's corny, and that's opinion if not everyone agrees with you

If the music moves you, why not move with it? If the audience like it, and are entertained, and it fits within the genre, it's all good IMO.