[Beginnersmind]

I’ve asked this before but maybe I didn’t phrase it quite right. I know everyone has high regard for the yas-23. I was wondering if the term “yas-23” has come to mean Yamaha student saxophones in general, or people really mean specifically the model 23?
Yamaha keeps reworking their entry level instrument. With each reiteration, is Yamaha making a better horn, a tougher horn, a less costly to manufacture horn, easier to repair horn, or what? If the 23 is so great, why keep tweaking it?
I keep researching this but can’t find any clear answers. Thanks for your input!

 

[pknight]

I do not have experience with a range of student Yamahas, so I can't comment on the nature of the changes across student models. I am sure that someone here can. I will say with some confidence that when people say YAS-23, they mean YAS-23, and not Yamaha student horns in general, just as Mark VI is not used as a generic term for Selmer pro models. My impression of the 23's "greatness" was that it was very well built, easy to work on, had a good tone, etc. It is commonly recommended for those qualities, and the fact that there were a lot of them made, and are generally available for a good price.

 

[JayeLID]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

Actually...you can do a websearch (not using the search engine on this Forum, but just a standard search engine) and come up with around a half-dozen threads on this query.

Here's the most thorough, IMHO:

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?366358-Best-Yamaha-student-alto

Generally speaking, people have their preferences. Some say the Japanese horns are just better made, others say that the Indonesian ones (where they are currently being made) are actually better.

Basically, really...the design of their student horn is 85% the same today as an early 90's 23 was.....they are essentially the same instrument. You can even go back further and say they are 80% the same instrument as the older 21's, and it'd be a reasonable observation.

So when someone says 'get a 23' do they refer to solely a 23 ? Not a 21 ? Not a 275 or 280 ? That is a tough question. I think people say '23' simply because it has been, historically, the most prevalent and longest-running production model, and are most prevalent on the used market.

So are they necessarily saying "stay away from the 21/26/275/280 and find a bona-fide 23" ???

I would say, no. Not necessarily.

 

[Just Joe]

My experience (Yamaha dealer) is that the company endeavors to improve all the time. For me, the stand-out improvement on the 26 /200ADII over the 23 is the upgraded neck receiver. They took the neck receiver from the 480 and utilized it on the 26.

 

[BBMozee]

The Yamaha 26 model has improved spatula keys as well. These are fantastic horns with a pro neck like the V1. I leave the VI at home and take the 26 for live shows.

 

[Beginnersmind]

Thanks everyone, this is helpful!

 

[milandro]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

Yamaha explains the evolution of their models

From Yamaha page on wikipedia

"..Please note that many of the items listed here are no longer in production. For example, the YAS-21 student-grade alto saxophone of the 1970s was superseded by the YAS-23 and YAS-25 saxophones during the 1990s. When manufacture of the YAS-23 and YAS-25 ended they were superseded by the YAS-275, which was in production as of 2010, but was eventually replaced by the YAS-280. "

So the timeline is 21-23 25-(275) which were nearly the same but marketed in different areas, and finally 280

unlike others, I use the local search engine from what I call the proper access place. I find a lot of material all to the point, since giving out links seems to be overwhelming , let me point you to relevant posts

https://www.saxontheweb.net ( where it says Google Custom Search) a box in the top part in the middle.

In that way I can use several search terms ( using different search terms will give you of course different results)

Suppose I use YAS 23 Yas 25 Yas 275 as search terms I will get 372 hits (some will be repeat hits).

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/gtsea....saxontheweb.net/&ref=&ss=49827j1390489115j27

In this way I find several thread (one of which OP of this one had started) https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?366358-Best-Yamaha-student-alto where I thought these matters were already explained.

Any way, attempting to answer OP's question

the 23 was the evolution of model 21 ( first student's horn), it featured few differences with the 23, the 21 was also the Vito/Yamaha

To the orig question: dif between 21 and 23.
I have both, tho not before my eyes at the moment.
The 21 had a stationary metal RH thumb rest, the 23 was moveable plastic
The 21 has some stack keys mounted on separate posts, while the 23 has mounted these on the same post (this is a cost-saving measure, it doesn't affect sound)
The 21 has a removeable bell, the 23 has a soldered bell-bow connection
Yes, the 21 is the older model.
Note that I also currently have 2 Vito's that are YAS23's (stamped Japan under SN)......in case you see these in your ebay searches.
The difs between these and the official Yamahas are: color of lacquer, cutout design in keyguards, Vito has 21-style RH thumbrest, imprint stamp on neck octave key is Leblanc logo.
These are the basics, as again I'm not looking at the horns as I type this.
As for playing quality, I agree with pkknight above.
I get these sort of horns as part of package deals for high-end instruments, usually. So I have gone thru many of them over the years.
And some are "thin and loud" and others are dark and mellow.
There are those who say the Yamaha-Vitos (most Vitos aren't made by Yamaha....look for the "Japan" stamp) are considered superior to the actual 23's.
Maybe they are more talented and knowledgeable than I, since some examples are really nice and others are kind of strident. Or maybe they just haven't played dozens of them.
If cost is a consideration, I'd say getting a 21 would save you plenty, judging from the greatly lowered demand for these, since people have no idea what the difs are between them.
Just make sure it's in splendiferous condition, as since it's going to be an older instrument it has had more years to have issues.
I have not measured tone hole dimensions, or placement.....Mr. Minear would be the expert on that if any changes were made in those regards.
But a perfect-playing 21 would likely be just as suitable for your use as a perfect-playing 23 (or Yam-Vito), from my general experience.
But any specific horn may be better than any specific other horn, in the judgement of a specific player with specific preferences.
Verb sap. Specifically.

mpcbliss,

Another 21 vs. 23 difference is in the side Bb and C keys. The 21 has the Yamaha 61-style linkage at the base of these keys, where a little peg goes all the way through the bottom of the key lever. I have an older Vito that is essentially identical to a 21, and it has this linkage. On the Vito this linkage is a bit loose and noisy, but on my 61 it is very quiet. Perhaps the Vito has just seen more use.

Now, on the difference between 23 and 25

The current (US market) 23 series is the same as the old 23 series that was discontinued in the UK (when the 25 series replaced it) - with no high F# and nickel plated keywork being the main differences - though they now have an adjustable plastic thumbrest instead of the fixed brass one.

Has to be said that the old 23 series saxes are incredible work-horses - there are still good examples still being played that are at least 20-25 years old, and show no signs of giving up.

Shows just how well a good utilitarian design endures.

I said the 25 series has the 62 STYLE keywork (and I KNOW it has the 62-style keywork) - I have compared both the 23 and 25 series saxes side by side (the actual instruments, not just photos), and the keywork is very different on each instrument.

The 25 keywork being much more like the 32 and 62 in it's style. I've still got the old catalogues somewhere which show the clear and distinct differences between the old 23 series and it's successor - the 25 series. The main differences being the 8ve mechanism which is the same as the 62, the upper pillar mounting with three heads on a single stem for the high E, high F# and LH3 keys, the bis key/G# pad cup mounting and the pillar for the LH little finger cluster with four pillar heads mounted on a single stem like the 62.

The 23 series has only lingered on in the US (where they were being assembled until very recently - now production has moved to China), whereas the 25 series replaced the 23 series in the rest of the world in the '90s.

Compare and contrast:

YAS-25L/275: http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/winds/sax/altosax/yas_275/?mode=enlarge

YAS-23: http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA...mage/0,,CNTID%253D65052%2526CTID%253D,00.html

YTS-25L/275: http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/winds/sax/tenorsax/yts_275/?mode=enlarge

YTS-23: http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA...mage/0,,CNTID%253D65061%2526CTID%253D,00.html

At the time (in the UK in the mid-'80s), the student sax market was mostly East European instruments from B&S (Sonora/Elkhart/B&M Champion) and Amati (Corton/Lafleur) at the lower end of the market and Yamaha at the top with the 23 series, and all went to high F.

Then Taiwanese saxes such as Jupiter (or Buffet Evette), Earlham, Artemis, etc. were being imported and had pro-style keywork to high F#. Although these were considerably cheaper than Yamaha, they did have the features that were found on pro instruments. Yamaha 23 saxes looked dated in comparison to what was on offer from the Taiwanese manufacturers, though that's not to say Yamaha's quality was lower, they weren't keeping up with the levels of specification.

So Yamaha responded in the mid-'90s by launching the 25 series which felt more like the 62 under the fingers and had the high F# - though I can't see from the photos if they had the low B-C# adjustment as on the 32 and 62. The 25L came in a bit later and had all lacquered keys (instead of nickel plated keys) and then the 275 with an adjustable thumbrest which is where we are currently.

Now on the differences between 23-25 and 275 ( the 25 and 275 were similar and marketed one in Europe and the other in the US)

I've played a YTS-23 and a YAS-275. Both are excellent student horns, but I must admit that I prefer the 275 - both models have great intonation but the 275 model just has a few more ad-ons, such as the high F# key and an adjustible thumb key. In terms of the sound, both have the usual bright/light Yamaha sound; the two models differ little on this aspect. The only difference is thus the F# key and the thumb rest. I have, however, read a review from a technician's view on the two horns (http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Buying/Reviews.htm) and it seems that there are some manufacturing faults with the 275. However, I have to say, the 275s are the best student saxophones I have played.

Funny how old this thread is.

There was also another in-between model= the YAS-25.
It had the high F# key- I think I remember the keys still being nickle-plated on that model.
I´m not sure as to why the 275 is available in Europe but not in the US.
I find them to be good, reliable student horns.

Answer to both questions: No. Nary a bit.

differences 275-280

The 280 and 480 have a repositioned low B-C# link adjusting screw which is now on the upper side of the low B cup arm and there's a longer linkage arm from the C# key, so that may find itself on the 62 and 82Z at some point on the future if it means better leverages and less friction in the linkage.

The crook socket on the 280 is the 62 style which has a thicker collar instead of being a parallel piece of tubing and the 8ve shift lever sits above the socket so you can use Custom series crooks (or Yanagisawa or Selmer crooks) on them if you want.

Personally I prefer the old style shift lever that was flush with the socket as that was far less likely to get damaged if the player doesn't always use the end stopper or a padsaver when it's put back in its case.

 

[turf3]

Thing is, a lot of people don't want to type "Yamaha YTS-21 or equivalent" when we all know that for all intents and purposes the five or six different model designations of Yamaha entry-level saxophones are essentially fungible. I think "Yamaha student horn" probably communicates it most effectively.

 

[JayeLID]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

something like that, yeah

I actually had a (not truly prospective although he pretended to be) buyer here query me about inexpensive Tenors and when I told him I had a couple of 21's available in his price range, he steadfastly held that he is interested in 23's, not 21's, because he had heard that 23's play better.

The only difference between a 21 and a 23 are:

1) The pivot of the G# armature which meets the G# keycup has been reversed (not the TOUCH, mind you...the touch operates identically)

2) The sidekey pivots are nibs on a 21, forked on a 23

3) The 21 has screw tension ferrules, the 23 traditional ones (which would have been a plus had Yama soldered the 23's, instead of using glue - this was incorrectly noted above as a soldered connection by another member, while it certainly is not soldered)

4) The rods on a 21 are of a more robust diameter.

5) Perhaps the thumbbhook (not really tho, I have seen 23's with stationary thumbhooks)

How this might make a 23 'play better' than a 21....is a mystery to me, but whatever...

Point is, again over the evolution, no major changes, just the occasional tweak (BTW I have read from other reliable sources that the neck tube did change a bit after the 23/25/26...so I could see how the receiver might have as well...)

 

[milandro]

as shown above (with all the results that I found in few minutes) there is nothing difficult in learning and using my simple search method, that searches as far as this forum goes and gets you the best and most complete results.

I have given the recipe many times, I have spent time searching for people and hopefully have shared also a methodology along with information.

https://www.saxontheweb.net

same search terms " differences Yamaha 23 and 280" get 429 results. Easy, another thing too many words in the search gives you many non relevant hits.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/gtsea...ch&siteurl=www.saxontheweb.net/&ref=&ss=0j0j1

 

[JayeLID]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

No question about it and one cannot argue that point whatsoever.

But the fact will remain that more people are going to gravitate towards the "search" box in the upper right of every Forum page, than they are going to happen to stumble across your many Forum replies (and those of a few others here as well, perhaps) instructing folks how to get more accurate results, is all...or search out the "Mother Page" of Saxontheweb...

So given that reality, people will continue to use the laughably bad search engine which the Forum pages provide.....come up with laughable search results, and not easily finding what they need, will post their question....

 

[turf3]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

as shown above (with all the results that I found in few minutes) there is nothing difficult in learning and using my simple search method, that searches as far as this forum goes and gets you the best and most complete results.

I have given the recipe many times, I have spent time searching for people and hopefully have shared also a methodology along with information.

https://www.saxontheweb.net

same search terms " differences Yamaha 23 and 280" get 429 results. Easy, another thing too many words in the search gives you many non relevant hits.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/gtsea...ch&siteurl=www.saxontheweb.net/&ref=&ss=0j0j1

The point is, though, that all these tiny detail changes are of little actual practical interest to anyone; "Yamaha student saxophone" still means pretty much what it did 40 years ago when I first eoncountered one. We're not talking about rare exotic collectibles here.

It's like getting wound up over the differences in successive generations of paper plates.

 

[JayeLID]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

Exactly. The only things one can argue in that respect (of 'noticeable differences' ) are that the table changed (just a bit with a swooped Bb touch), and the spats shape changed. Although neck and receiver did as well, it'd be hard to claim 'this notably improved the performance of the horn'.

 

[milandro]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

The point is, though, that all these tiny detail changes are of little actual practical interest to anyone; "Yamaha student saxophone" still means pretty much what it did 40 years ago when I first eoncountered one. We're not talking about rare exotic collectibles here.

It's like getting wound up over the differences in successive generations of paper plates.

The differences don't matter to me, nor I get wound up about them.

I did nothing else than answerr OP's question and pointing him in the direction of the people who answered , in detail, his query.

If sdome people say YAS 23 and mean all Yamaha student model that may very well be.

I've asked this before but maybe I didn't phrase it quite right. I know everyone has high regard for the yas-23. I was wondering if the term "yas-23" has come to mean Yamaha student saxophones in general, or people really mean specifically the model 23?
Yamaha keeps reworking their entry level instrument. With each reiteration, is Yamaha making a better horn, a tougher horn, a less costly to manufacture horn, easier to repair horn, or what? If the 23 is so great, why keep tweaking it?
I keep researching this but can't find any clear answers. Thanks for your input!

 

[Just Joe]

As a dealer and technician (I keep my rental fleet running) the neck socket change was a really smart move. There have been many instances over my past 25 years where the student would break off the neck screw. Although avoidable, I never blamed the student - it was a vulnerable spot in the hands of a beginner (think 5th grader.)

A point of interest maybe. Yamaha calls their entry level wind instruments Standard models not Student models. I've always liked that.

 

[JayeLID]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

Exactly. The only things one can argue in that respect (of 'noticeable differences' ) are that the table changed (just a bit with a swooped Bb touch), and the spats shape changed. Although neck and receiver did as well, it'd be hard to claim 'this notably improved the performance of the horn'.

Oh...280 seems to have high F#, as I think one other model there in between the 23 and 280 also did.

 

[Beginnersmind]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

No question about it and one cannot argue that point whatsoever.

But the fact will remain that more people are going to gravitate towards the "search" box in the upper right of every Forum page, than they are going to happen to stumble across your many Forum replies (and those of a few others here as well, perhaps) instructing folks how to get more accurate results, is all...or search out the "Mother Page" of Saxontheweb...

So given that reality, people will continue to use the laughably bad search engine which the Forum pages provide.....come up with laughable search results, and not easily finding what they need, will post their question....

Thank you! I don't feel quite as stupid now. ? I will test out the directions for getting better search results now. I was wondering why I wasn't finding answers to some of my basic questions.

 

[Beginnersmind]

Re: Differences in Yamaha "standard" saxophones

Milandro, thanks for that VERY detailed answer! That was exactly what I was looking for. I'm sorry I gave up going to my original post on this topic, it seemed to have died. And I now see that searches are best done from the home page. I had no idea that those two search boxes worked differently. gratitude.