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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have heard several solos of Coltrane and I found some sluggish phrases in
there. Please someone clarify this to me. Is that his own style-technique or is
something wrong in those solos? For example Woodyn you with Miles.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Well...they cut four albums from 4 days of recording for those "Cookin'" sessions...I'm not sure if I'd call that sluggish! :)

The solo on Woody n You is not one of my favourites for sure, but what I hear there is Coltrane already pushing against the boundaries of the Bebop approach. He's like a lion in a cage! OTOH, we know that Trane was badly hooked on both alcohol and heroin at that time...so I guess a few slips can be expected.

I'm not quite a member of the church, but I am one of those fans for whom Coltrane can do no wrong...and proud of it! :)
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

...lets face it...if you practice 10 hours a day...everyday.... you are in rythmn!!! that was him pushing the boundaries...it might seem out of context to you..but its inside(in the future)
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Listen to ALL of his solos, and then get back to me/us. While he was on junk at the end of his tenure with Miles, it was also the catalyst for what was to come. When you're 60, do you want to be judged on a couple of solos you took at 26, or whatever?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

I noticed some lack of concentration on several parts of the solo, it is possible alcohol-drug consequence maybe. I think Coltrane was more focused on composing and searching new things in music than taking care of his performances.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Listen to ALL of his solos, and then get back to me/us. While he was on junk at the end of his tenure with Miles, it was also the catalyst for what was to come. When you're 60, do you want to be judged on a couple of solos you took at 26, or whatever?
Well I am not judging at all, just curious about his improvisation on that tune. I know a lot of jazzist (like Parker) lost their potential due to drugs or and alcohol.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

That'll make him think twice about the choices he made.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Hopefully he would have done, now we would be enjoying more and more music from him
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Coltrane had some areas where he "stumbled" in the early days (just like many of us I'm sure). Heck, if Miles' book is right he fired him around '55 or '56 and tehn hired him back. If you read the liner notes on one of the four records (cookin, Steamin, Relaxin, and Workin') they talk about how that group was heavily criticized.

This is one of my favorite parts of Coltrane's career as it shows a developmental stage. He's really putting his thing together and you can just hear him in the practice room ya know.

It's pure and raw. You can hear and feel his determination and hunger.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Amen, Swamp'.

He could have gone for the manufactured and rehearsed solos but instead was constantly evolving.

And, as most would acknowledge, the process of evolution involves diversity and the fact that not all trials result in a winner to advance to the next level. Would he do the same solo in the same way on the next take? Doubtful. How many takes are enough? When do you stop? Is it ever enough?

Play it safe or hang it out there? I, too, enjoy the rawness of the work.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

I think that the machine-like precision technique came after those times and involved other players who followed Coltrane. He dealt with his drug abuse early on in his career (at the times when he was fired by Miles Davis) and coming out of it gave him his mystic experience in which he had promised G-d to create music which would bring his audience closer to the mystical experience that he has undergone. In other words he made the choice to go pursuing a different path, not one of virtuosos's experience but one where tone and emotions were paramount.

In other words , as other great artists before him he abandoned the simple pursuit of technique to go for what he thought (and I too think) is a greater role of music in particular and art in general.




 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

I noticed some lack of concentration on several parts of the solo, it is possible alcohol-drug consequence maybe. I think Coltrane was more focused on composing and searching new things in music than taking care of his performances.
This is quite possible. But be careful how you phrase this. It sound like you are referring to years and years of abuse that didn't take its toll for a few 10 more years. You may hear the immediate consequences of alcohol or drugs. Most of the recordings on those four records were done actually in 2 days (14 of them including Woody N You recorded on 5.11.56, and 11 done on 10.26.56.

You can really hear Coltrane's progress from May to October. October includes songs like Oleo, Round Midnight, Airegin, and If I Were a Bell.

The whole point here is - take a closer look and listen to what you are checking out. He didn't cut his most high profile recordings for another 3 to 4 years - and then ask yoruself - how much practice did it take for him to get there in 3 or 4 years.

Amazing stuff.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Coltrane had some areas where he "stumbled" in the early days (just like many of us I'm sure). Heck, if Miles' book is right he fired him around '55 or '56 and tehn hired him back. If you read the liner notes on one of the four records (cookin, Steamin, Relaxin, and Workin') they talk about how that group was heavily criticized.

This is one of my favorite parts of Coltrane's career as it shows a developmental stage. He's really putting his thing together and you can just hear him in the practice room ya know.

It's pure and raw. You can hear and feel his determination and hunger.
I have to agree with Mr. Cabbage. I feel the same about Woody Shaw during the "Unity" period.
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Coltrane; giant of the tenor sax, groundbreaking/ breathtaking musical vision. Some of the greatest recorded sax ever.

Interspersed with the diamonds are some pretty evident examples of pure cubic zirconia.

Very few are consistently perfect- no one that I know of- and even Gods sometimes reveal their feet of clay.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

This is quite possible. But be careful how you phrase this. It sound like you are referring to years and years of abuse that didn't take its toll for a few 10 more years. You may hear the immediate consequences of alcohol or drugs. Most of the recordings on those four records were done actually in 2 days (14 of them including Woody N You recorded on 5.11.56, and 11 done on 10.26.56.

You can really hear Coltrane's progress from May to October. October includes songs like Oleo, Round Midnight, Airegin, and If I Were a Bell.

The whole point here is - take a closer look and listen to what you are checking out. He didn't cut his most high profile recordings for another 3 to 4 years - and then ask yoruself - how much practice did it take for him to get there in 3 or 4 years.

Amazing stuff.
Thanks a lot for this constructive and informative post!
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Or.... Maybe Miles chose the take you are referring to because of something other than John Coltrane's solo...
 

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Re: Did John Coltrane had a sluggish technique in some solos?

Only when he was on the "O" pipe.
 
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