[A Greene]

I have 4 of the Tenney Slant Tone Edge tenor mouthpieces. Two have thin tip rails and two have rather thick tip rails. Although more resistant (which I offset with a softer reed) I much prefer the ones with the thick tip edge rails. I know this seems counter intuitive but there's much more mid-range in the sound.

Did Doc Tenney have a preference of the rail thickness? I'm fairly certain the two with thick rails are original.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

Yes, he did prefer thicker rails. He felt the thicker side rails attenuated/dampened reed oscillations, which limits upper partials (I feel they do as well). He felt a thicker tip allowed the reed to be better positioned for those playing gigs in darker settings and articulated distinctly than thinner tip rails.

 

[Atonal]

Yes, he did prefer thicker rails. He felt the thicker side rails attenuated/dampened reed oscillations, which limits upper partials (I feel they do as well). He felt a thicker tip allowed the reed to be better positioned for those playing gigs in darker settings and articulated distinctly than thinner tip rails.

Do thicker rails also have an impact on a mouthpiece's reed friendliness? I've always found Doc's mouthpieces to be extremely reed friendly, while I find that some of my mouthpieces with super thin rails seem to be more sensitive to reed brand/cut/strength and can have a tendency to chirp more easily.

 

[Guto]

?... thicker side rails attenuated/dampened reed oscillations, which limits upper partials (I feel they do as well)...

Just curious, why is that a benefit?

 

[A Greene]

Just curious, why is that a benefit?

I can tell you that I prefer the flexibility of softer reeds but they often get a buzzy quality. The thicker rails offer a bit more resistance but seemed to dampen only a very specific harmonic range. Dr. Caravan does this with his Caravan classical pieces but to a greater extent. I can still get a clean edge to the sound with tons of mid-range and lows without that soft-reed buzz. Difficult to explain and was really surprised that it worked so well when I stumbled across my first Tenney Slant almost 15 years ago.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

Do thicker rails also have an impact on a mouthpiece's reed friendliness? I've always found Doc's mouthpieces to be extremely reed friendly, while I find that some of my mouthpieces with super thin rails seem to be more sensitive to reed brand/cut/strength and can have a tendency to chirp more easily.

I think they do, and I think Doc expressed they did as well. Some mouthpiece makers prefer thinner rails, especially thinner tip rails (look at the pricier pieces available on the market--nothing exceeding .030" let alone .020" tip rails going on there). Too thin and mouthpieces can become chirpy, though other variables can trigger this as well. I can thin these things with the best of them, but I don't ever do it on my personal pieces (Partially because I'm classically trained and just like thicker rails). I generally like thick side rails and a thicker tip rail (greater than .030"). Tony Dagradi, one of my favorite jazz players, prefers tip rails I need bifocals to see (and use magnifying lenses to cut).

The frustrating element is meeting the demand of the consumer, who sometimes perceive thinner and tighter tip and side rails to be a cosmetic improvement over thicker tip and side rails and fail to recognize that the race towards super thin complicates things in terms of playability. They also sometimes feel it indicates the skill level of the maker). Doc didn't ever worry about this. He cut the rails the way he preferred them for his pieces and people just had to deal with it or not buy his pieces. If I had his acumen, strength of character, and wisdom, I would do the same. But I have kind of caved to consumer demand, which I often regret.

So, yes, they impact a mouthpiece's reed friendliness (as does too much of a tip contour). I love Doc's pieces. I am going to be producing all my dedicated pieces to him (10EJM--same thing as his Jazzmaster) with the thicker side rails without any alternative. I may vary the tip rail depending on a player's dedication to playing one reed brand/type).

All this talk about Doc makes me really miss him. He was so correct about so many things and so willing to share his knowledge with those who would listen.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

Just curious, why is that a benefit?

It's a personal preference thing really. I prefer it; others don't.

I can tell you that I prefer the flexibility of softer reeds but they often get a buzzy quality. The thicker rails offer a bit more resistance but seemed to dampen only a very specific harmonic range. Dr. Caravan does this with his Caravan classical pieces but to a greater extent. I can still get a clean edge to the sound with tons of mid-range and lows without that soft-reed buzz. Difficult to explain and was really surprised that it worked so well when I stumbled across my first Tenney Slant almost 15 years ago.

And what he said.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

Doc stood behind the concept that mouthpiece playability is far more important than mouthpiece cosmetics. But the boutique craft has taken a turn towards thinner and tighter everything with polished baffles and whatever else that can be done to make a mouthpiece super pretty. I prefer Doc's emphasis on playability versus cosmetics (though the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive).

 

[Jazz House]

I can tell you that I prefer the flexibility of softer reeds but they often get a buzzy quality. The thicker rails offer a bit more resistance but seemed to dampen only a very specific harmonic range. Dr. Caravan does this with his Caravan classical pieces but to a greater extent. I can still get a clean edge to the sound with tons of mid-range and lows without that soft-reed buzz. Difficult to explain and was really surprised that it worked so well when I stumbled across my first Tenney Slant almost 15 years ago.

I'm with you on softer reeds. I've never really been able to get a good sound out of harder reeds.

Weirdly, I don't think my Caravan tenor piece has thick tip or side rails. It looks pretty normal compared to my Jazz Select, V16 and FL pieces. On another note, the rubber is just crazy on it. So so sulphurous and stinky. Great quality blank!

Something that might be relevant is what Vandoren is doing on its Black Diamond clarinet mouthpieces. I bought one of these last year and it's just a terrific thing. It does everything better than any of my other clarinet mouthpieces and it has by far the thickest tip and side rails of all my mouthpieces. It's not quite as loud as my B45, but I get better control. And all the others I've seen in the shop have very thick rails too. I've only stopped playing it because it's the 13 model and tunes a little flat on my clarinet. Must get the regular version...

 

[dirty]

Yeah, I think the thin tip rail obsession has gotten a little out of hand. I have a Fobes 10K bass clarinet mouthpiece that is one of the most vibrant and responsive mouthpieces I've ever played. It has a rather thick tip rail. He doesn't do that on all of his mouthpieces, but for this particularly open one, he told me that the thicker tip rail improved response compared to other testers he made. I have a San Francisco RR that has about as thin a tip rail as is probably practical for a bass clarinet mouthpiece, so it's definitely not a matter of him not knowing how.

Likewise, Vandoren's B40 is a B45 with a thicker tip rail. That's one of the most popular mouthpieces out there among classical players and it has a totally different set of playing characteristics to the B45. Clearly the tip rail makes a big difference and the specific difference it makes seems to depend on some other factors. I would guess that the tip rail (or the transition from the rail to the baffle) affects how the air stream interacts with the baffle? Is the tip rail part of the baffle?

 

[Jazz House]

I once borrowed a Selmer S80 D for a music camp when I was a kid. It kind of played ok, but just didn't feel great.

I then had a close look at it and realised it didn't have a tip rail. It was just completely rounded at the tip! Unbelievable!

 

[Benjamin Allen]

I once borrowed a Selmer S80 D for a music camp when I was a kid. It kind of played ok, but just didn't feel great.

I then had a close look at it and realised it didn't have a tip rail. It was just completely rounded at the tip! Unbelievable!

That's interesting. It reminds me of the refacers to knock the entire tip rail off (systematically getting it thinner and thinner) and then reapply the tip rail. Though this just sounds like the machining and quality control and Selmer missed it.

 

[Jazz House]

Yes, I think this one was just a factory dud. It had a stock facing and just looked really sloppy.

 

[B Flat]

I have a few pieces with very thin tip rails that are very reed friendly.
Ted Klums pieces come to mind as well as some of the Aaron Drake pieces.

 

[Sebastian]

Yes, he did prefer thicker rails. He felt the thicker side rails attenuated/dampened reed oscillations, which limits upper partials (I feel they do as well). He felt a thicker tip allowed the reed to be better positioned for those playing gigs in darker settings and articulated distinctly than thinner tip rails.

I always wondered why he didn't reshape the actual tip to match a reed in this case. Even with Doc's wide tip rail, part of it (the middle) will always be thinner so the reed isn't stopping uniformly at the end. I'm referring more to his refaces. I like a slightly thicker tip rail too compared to others the way that 60's STM pieces and also 60's NY USA Meyers did. I like being able to move my reed more and still catch the tip rail evenly.

I really wish I could have met him as you did, I'm sure he would have schooled me a few times over!

 

[Henk]

To me the advantage of a thicker tip rail is flexibility. It allows different reed positions on the mouthpiece. Put it a little back (covering less of the tip rail) and the reed gets a little edgier, put it a little forward (covering more of the tip rail) and it gets a bit less edgy. Also resistance can be tuned somewhat with a thicker tiprail by moving a reed.

 

[Enthusiast65]

With this in mind are there designs that favour a thicker tip and others that work better with a thinner tip ? If so what are the parameters at work here that inform those choices?


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[Benjamin Allen]

I think there are designs that favor a certain tip rail profile (especially mouthpieces generally designed for one genre of music--that being classical primarily). IMO, classical mouthpieces do favor thicker tip rails and sometimes side rails as these help balance the mouthpiece away from upper partials. After that, I feel Otto Link style pieces (like the Jazzmaster) greatly benefit from thicker side rails since the intent is to limit upper partials, which is the main reason I am no longer going to be thinning the side rails on pieces dedicated to Doc Tenney--I just don't think he would approve of thinned side rails. He was an advocate of more mouthpiece contact with the reed to darken the piece and let the player brighten the mouthpiece should he or she so choose. This is one reason I love the Tenney Jazzmaster and have chosen to completely replicate it--it's just a straight forward excellent mouthpiece that lets the player define the sound. In actuality, this could be said of all of Doc Tenney's work.

 

[Enthusiast65]

Thanks Ben - great answer makes so much sense.


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[MojoBari]

Doc did not care for extreme design features. Just quality like extremely flat tables and even facings.