[motteatoj]

Thought I would share my recent experience with a new to me 10M silver plate horn from 1945.

Up to the 10M, my only tenor is a MKVII and a Gaia 3 metal mpc.
I love love love the Gaia, and thought it could rule the tenor world, not so.

As I am sure many of you know (I did not until doing some research here and with others), these 10M need true large chamber pieces to have any chance of being in tune. Tonally my Gaia was ok, but super super sharp.

So I did a mpc trial thanks to Brain at Getasax (love this guy).
He pre-tested his inventory of mpcs on his 10M to see that he liked best and what he thought would work for me based on some things I told him I was after out of the 10M - a dark, vintage tone overall.
BTW, Brian's customer service is just amazing!

So this weekend I trialed 3 mpcs...
1. Otto Link Tone Master 6* (was a reface)
2. Woodwind & Co 6* EG reface
3. Brilhart HR 6* BP reface

Results -

LINK
I guess i am not a metal link guy, because i have yet to find one that I like in any application. I found it thin in general compared to the rest. I did find it very easy to blow, just didn't like what blew out.

WOODWIND & CO
I liked this piece in a few ways - it was easiest of all to tune in intonation on the 10M by far, easy peasy, and was the darkest of the 3, however, it came at the cost of projection and stuffiness. Lots of stuffiness. This piece also had a lot of resistance, which I tend to shy away from.

BRILHART
The winner! Dialed in intonation well, played dark but also would project when I wanted just fine, and was very easy to blow. Two things really stood out here. The first was how SOFTLY I could play. I have never been able to play so softly so easily, it was crazy soft, and notes didn't 'drop out' while playing so soft. I was actually looking for 'dark and soft', and, althought not quite as dark at the WW&CO, was still really nice. The second thing i noticed was when I hit low Eb, it was like a 'ah-ha' moment. Something in the combo of this horn and mpc made that horn resonate (or peal like a bell) like I have never heard before. It was truly one of those magic moments. Now I know I am not going to go around playing Eb all the time, but it did really stand out as something special, thought it was neat. I kept playing Eb just to hear it!

I did note similar things with all the mpcs on my MKVII, just to see, and the Brilhart is now my 'dark' piece for that too.

So, as I am sure many of you already know, old horn and old mpc is sometimes just right.
I have been hesitant to search vintage pieces as I never really thought my playing was good enough to spend the time searching, but it sure is!

Next, onto a 6M mpc search as my TW NY Bros 2 just doesn't cut it for me.

Hope this helps some others

BRILHART

 

[datsaxman]

Congrats on finding a good match.

I like some Beechlers on the 6M. But who knows?

 

[turf3]

On my 10M I like a Meyer 8 or a Link Tone Edge "new vintage" 6 (these are the same tip opening). A Brilhart Ebolin plays well too. For a real cutting sound a high baffle large chamber piece, like a Dukoff D7, works great. All these pieces play beautifully in tune.

On my 6M I like a Meyer 7 or a Selmer Soloist C*. Zero intonation issues on the 6M (in my opinion the best alto sax ever made).

 

[ZenBen]

I thought Theo put a true large chamber in his pieces. Is that not the case?

 

[saxoclese]

Interesting. I play a Jody Jazz Jet 7 on my Conn 10M and find the intonation quite manageable. I experience the same attributes as the Brilhart mentioned above. To date I have not tried a large chamber piece on it. I find the Jody Jazz to be a great jazz mouthpiece at a reasonable price.

 

[motteatoj]

I thought Theo put a true large chamber in his pieces. Is that not the case?

apparently there is a difference.
I thought so too, and he does.
I don't understand that differences or the whys in great detail.
I can say the Gaia has a much longer roll over baffle and a step baffle post the 'shark gills'.
The Brillhart has a shorter rollover only.
Both pieces are about the same length.

 

[Tzadik]

My experience with 10M is quite different.

Many 10M I tried have intonation issues by themselves... even if they were properly setted (so not an extreme setup to impress players).
With "intonation issues" I mean the octaves were not matched. Due to a bad body/match... and I can say the critical part is the way the neck were manufactured.

When I found great 10M, the octave were well alligned (much better than most of BA/SBA short bell I've tried... to be honest).
There were even no issues due to the "short neck" thing... so I didn't have my mouthpiece falling of the neck to have a correct intonation (A=440 Hz).

Problems came out with strange design (Wanne "ultra large chamber" mouthpiece or classical pieces like Selmer S80/S90, Soloist Short Shank).

I tend to relate always to how much the register on the body (with and without the octave hole on the body open) and the register with the octave hole on the neck open.
When the body and the neck are well matched (leaving out the low bell notes) you the middle and the high register homogeneously in tune.

Somebody can consider an instrument in tune what the intonation divergence is around 15/20/25% between the two registers.
At this level, for me the instrument is NOT in tune... requires too much work/compensation to be in tune.

To me it's in tune when we are within 5/8%... which something is also can be managed by working on key heights and other secret stuff.


-----
One thing I suggest is to lengthen the neck (at the tip), a small flange of 5/6 mm: this of course helps with the mouthpiece chamber volume matching... and helps to "stabilize" the high register (palm keys and altissimo in particular).
Cheap modding, fully reversible, definitely not visible... if your repairman knows his thing.

 

[Stretch]

I have owned a few Conn tenors and my personal experience in a very limited unscientific way, using primarily Link style mouthpieces, is that the 1947 non rolled tone hole horn that I still own has the best intonation/scale of the lot that I have owned or played. The darkness and fullness of tone of the non RTH 10M may be dialed down a bit from the earlier versions, but the tuning is very good with a variety of different mouthpieces.

 

[Pete Thomas]

As I am sure many of you know (I did not until doing some research here and with others), these 10M need true large chamber pieces to have any chance of being in tune.

This is such a myth...I switched from MKVI to 10M purely because the 10M had better intonation, and very mouthpiece friendly. I know that there are people who say they have intonation problems, I'm not calling them liars, but i think it's a bit much to say this as if it's a fact when so many people play them in tune without needing a tubby old huge chambered mouthpiece.

When I got my first 10M I was playing (I think) a Wolf Tayne - but then progressed through Vandoren Java, Jumbo Java, Dave Guardala, RPC and finally PPT. Nobody complained about my intonation, and they weren't just being polite - I'm talking about big time band leaders and producedrs.

Time to stop this 10M + mouthpiece fake news!

 

[motteatoj]

This is such a myth...I switched from MKVI to 10M purely because the 10M had better intonation, and very mouthpiece friendly. I know that there are people who say they have intonation problems, I'm not calling them liars, but i think it's a bit much to say this as if it's a fact when so many people play them in tune without needing a tubby old huge chambered mouthpiece.

When I got my first 10M I was playing (I think) a Wolf Tayne - but then progressed through Vandoren Java, Jumbo Java, Dave Guardala, RPC and finally PPT. Nobody complained about my intonation, and they weren't just being polite - I'm talking about big time band leaders and producedrs.

Time to stop this 10M + mouthpiece fake news!

How can you say this is a myth without knowing every possible combination of variables?
I'm sure there are player/mpc/10M builds that it's not true for, but that doesn't make it a myth.
What vintage was your horn?

 

[Pete Thomas]

How can you say this is a myth without knowing every possible combination of variables?
I'm sure there are player/mpc/10M builds that it's not true for, but that doesn't make it a myth.

The myth is in saying (or implying) it applies to all 10ms without considering the variables
In my experience these types of myths are based on generalisation

What vintage was your horn?

I have owned a couple and played many. From 30s through to 50s.

 

[turf3]

The thing is, that a lot of these statements got started years ago and there was no way to disseminate counterinformation widely. If your repairman in your town said (for example) "oh, those old sopranos all play out of tune" you had little access to the experience of anyone who knew differently. I personally have had experience with two of these:

1) "Old sopranos can't be played in tune" - that's what I heard when I bought my first Holton back in 1980. I fooled around with the horn for a while, shoved the mouthpiece way onto the cork and practiced - and was delighted to find it played PERFECTLY in tune.

2) "Conns are just crummy student horns, not near as good as a Selmer" - and then I found my first professional Conn, a 6M, in a pawnshop. I didn't have to even play it to be able to tell from the action of the keywork that this was no crummy student horn. I still own and play that horn.

 

[motteatoj]

The myth is in saying (or implying) it applies to all 10ms without considering the variables
In my experience these types of myths are based on generalisation

I have owned a couple and played many. From 30s through to 50s.

Got 'cha. I did over-generalize in my first post, thought I wrote it differently.
Well my experience was is that it was in fact out of tune with the mpc I had, severely. I was quite shocked as the Gaia is a 'true large chamber' as noted in TW literature.
All I know is all 3 I tried were right in the pocket intonation wise and my Gaia was super sharp across the horn (and very much easily in tune with my MK VII).
I would have had to lip it down to my knees to get it in tune!
These three I tried all brought tuning in range, certainly differences in ease of tuning in each, but all diealed it in.

I would suppose these 'myths' are realites for some other than myself.
When I was faced with the issue, I searched and asked and received a lot of the same feedback pointing me to this 'myth', which is indeed an over-generalization.
The solve did support the advice I was being given.

As with everything saxophone, our milage may vary, indeed!

 

[motteatoj]

The thing is, that a lot of these statements got started years ago and there was no way to disseminate counterinformation widely. If your repairman in your town said (for example) "oh, those old sopranos all play out of tune" you had little access to the experience of anyone who knew differently. I personally have had experience with two of these:

1) "Old sopranos can't be played in tune" - that's what I heard when I bought my first Holton back in 1980. I fooled around with the horn for a while, shoved the mouthpiece way onto the cork and practiced - and was delighted to find it played PERFECTLY in tune.

2) "Conns are just crummy student horns, not near as good as a Selmer" - and then I found my first professional Conn, a 6M, in a pawnshop. I didn't have to even play it to be able to tell from the action of the keywork that this was no crummy student horn. I still own and play that horn.

Kinda like "MKVIs are magical"....maybe some, I have not found one yet, but that doesn't mean they don't exist...

 

[turf3]

Got 'cha. I did over-generalize in my first post, thought I wrote it differently.
Well my experience was is that it was in fact out of tune with the mpc I had, severely. I was quite shocked as the Gaia is a 'true large chamber' as noted in TW literature.
All I know is all 3 I tried were right in the pocket intonation wise and my Gaia was super sharp across the horn (and very much easily in tune with my MK VII).
I would have had to lip it down to my knees to get it in tune!
These three I tried all brought tuning in range, certainly differences in ease of tuning in each, but all diealed it in.

I would suppose these 'myths' are realites for some other than myself.
When I was faced with the issue, I searched and asked and received a lot of the same feedback pointing me to this 'myth', which is indeed an over-generalization.
The solve did support the advice I was being given.

As with everything saxophone, our milage may vary, indeed!

When you say the mouthpiece was "sharp over the whole range" what exactly does that mean?

If you match the open D with the closed D, and adjust the mouthpiece position till they're in tune, is it way above A=440?

Or do you mean the shank is so short it can't mechanically stay in place? How does the distance between the tip of the MP and a convenient registration point (say, the octave vent) vary amongst the different MPs?

 

[saxoclese]

To paraphrase Benade on p.471 of "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" On a conical woodwind the combination of the neck, mouthpiece and reed must be balanced in such a way that the player's own embouchure control is sufficient to allow the final "trimming up" of resonances as he goes from note to note. For all this to become possible one must simultaneously meet two requirements: (1) A low frequency requirement that the total equivalent volume of the mouthpiece plus neck be a close match to the volume of the "missing cone", and (2) A higher frequency requirement that the played frequency of the mouthpiece + neck be equal to the natural resonant frequency of a perfect cone the same length.

The "equivalent volume" of the mouthpiece and reed while playing is larger than the measured geometric volume of the mouthpiece by roughly 33%. This is affected by the reed travel which is greater at louder playing levels and by playing a softer reed. The "equivalent volume" of the mouthpiece plus neck is also affected by how far the mouthpiece is placed on the neck to tune which in turn is affected by the tightness of the player's embouchure which determines the mouthpiece pitch.

The length of the "missing cone" can be roughly calculated by extending the taper of the neck to a point or apex. The physical length of the neck can be measured by bending a wire to its shape and measuring the length. The natural resonant frequency of the mouthpiece + neck can be calculated using this formula F = v/2Xo where F is the frequency, v is the speed of sound (approximately 347 m/sec) and Xo is the length of the neck + calculated missing cone.

A simplified summary of the above can be stated this way: If the played pitch on the mouthpiece alone is roughly G concert and no higher, the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck matches E concert, and when the mouthpiece is set in tuning position the pitch of fingered B2 matches the first overtone of B1 and the pitch of fingered F#2 matches the second overtone of B1 the above acoustic requirements have been met.

Because of the variables of different playing styles in terms of dynamics, different embouchures, different reed strengths, and different tip openings and lays, it is difficult to make a blanket statement that one mouthpiece plays better in tune on a Conn 10M than another. A mouthpiece that works for one player may not work for another.

 

[motteatoj]

Because of the variables of different playing styles in terms of dynamics, different embouchures, different reed strengths, and different tip openings and lays, it is difficult to make a blanket statement that one mouthpiece plays better in tune on a Conn 10M than another. A mouthpiece that works for one player may not work for another.

This is of course the other variable. Thank you for sharing that excerpt.
Net net, no magic formula, it's all combo relative, player included.

 

[Grumps]

As I am sure many of you know (I did not until doing some research here and with others), these 10M need true large chamber pieces to have any chance of being in tune.

The quirk isn't simply an intonation issue. No, the issue that folks can have is that to play in tune, modern styled mouthpieces have to sit far off the neck cork which can affect low end response; particularly around low D. I had Ron make me a RPC rollover 125 that was such a good match for my 10M that I instantly had him make me another as a backup. They pushed in much further than the high baffled RPC I had been using with no low end issues. Sold 'em both though when I moved the horn. Which brings me to a sort of coincidence. I to went from a VII tenor to a 10M... until ultimately settling down with a Silversonic.

 

[Saxaholic]

The vintage Conns I have played have all been in tune. A 1933 Tranny Alto was perhaps the most in-tune horn I have ever played...also confirmed by several other players, including classical saxophone professors. It truly was a freak of a horn.

I will say the Brilhart you picked was probably made back when these were popular horns and in my experience they tend to match well.

I do think the mouthpiece sensitivity thing is overblown; like Pete said, too many variables.

I own and play a "The Martin Tenor" which somehow developed an undeserved reputation of having poor intonation. But I've played this horn for well over 10 years at this point and it has always been in tune. I would dare venture to say it plays in tune with almost any mouthpiece. I've had paint peelers on it and warm, stuffy vintage pieces and the intonation always lined up very well. It does tend to prefer medium-large to large chambered pieces for a more "in slot" feeling with the intonation and to help the overtones match up a bit better, but even the super high-baffle small chamber pieces play quickly and easily in tune, with wonderful octaves.

I DID have a The Martin Alto with incorrect pads and pad heights that played out of tune. I ripped out the pads and put the correct .160 pads in and with proper heights it sang, no more intonation woes.

I'm glad you found an awesome match for your horn. A Conn 10M and Brilhart is a classic combo. Enjoy!

- Saxaholic

 

[turf3]

I suspect a 10M with Brilhart may have been Lester Young's last setup (older pictures show him with what looks like an Otto Link metal to me, but near the end of his life he is pictured with a black MP that looks kind of Brilhart-y to me).