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There is no implied endorsement in furnishing the following link, merely a completion of the record contained in this thread. If we're going to publish all the multiple and consistent allegations from several different and unrelated parties of wrongdoing on Mr. Burton's part we ought to also at least point out his averations of events;

http://www.saxophoneoasis.com/justicesystem.html

If nothing else it appears that at one point ConnHunter's horn had a different and functional pinky table installed and that it still had lacquer at that time (middle set of pix- surely appearing to be of a Conn NW). The last set of pix are of a completely different horn; note the beveled edges on the toneholes. Perhaps a picture of what he terms his "Ultimate" table, because it sure has nothing else to do with the Conn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #122 ·
Hi Henry,

we are waiting for more pics taken by Eric. I asked him to take detailed pics of all mechanic parts sent, including the new LH table which I hope is there. Didn't see a pic of yet.

Concerning the link you provided I'd be usually keen to read but this Sir LB lied so often to me and about me and others in his homepage... I am afraid I could read again some BS there and got so upset that I'd be tempted to take the plane to WA just to punch his lying mouth what, to be very very honest , is what he deserves.
After an intensive communication with me and later with Eric, always laying, postponing and in the meantime stripping my sax to use parts in other horns, listening to this Sir is a waste of time. But this is just my opinion and my feeling.

Of course all others can take the time to read his BS.
He got money in advance because he asked for that, he took the time, he destroyed the horn.

For me is clear that LB tried to show that it's not worthwhile for his customers to face him. Stripping the sax that way was unnecessary and unexplicable.

I'd like to have the tonehole back and all other parts but guess what? they must be soldered in another horn right now.
Also, taking parts out of the sax and not giving them back is suspicious. The same happened to the original parts of Walter Webb's Martin Magna.

But the results and the pictures tell the story. He can't blame me for this. All what I did was to pay in advance and wait 33 months to get a junk. Ask Eric. My cousin played almost every kind of horn available in the USA, we are not kidding.

His tech said I can forget the horn, making of it a tenor sax again costs too much. Parts being missed and solder spots everywhere not making mention of the awful patch on the F#s hole. A deception since he showed me a total different patch done (pics in my hard drive in Africa) he didn't replace the tonehole, where is it now?

I can barely wait to get more pictures to show you guys. If exists a justification for doing this mess, a real plausible one, for lying, stealing parts, making ugly somth beautiful, losing parts which has been there intact for over 80 years and denigrating a beautiful playing horn to a piece of brass junk in a time frame of 33 months, than , than I will spend my time reading his freak crazy, psychedelic explanations.

I am sure, more stories will pop up. Just wait people.
 

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A bit off topic but important issue IMO...

The tech who does most my work has my cell phone number.
Sure, having a customer's phone number is usual and obvious. It was a reply to the specific issue of giving a document describing the work that will be done, etc. and generalizing that a "legit" shop will give one.

Well, o.k. I guess I was generalizing
I agree that it can be better to get a signed document if you feel you need one or just to be safer. Sure, some will give one anyway (auto process for them sometimes). I was just replying to that exact generalization that a "legit" place will give a document like this. I have the customer's contact info and I know they can trust me. The only reason to rwite and give something like that is if they want it and almost no one is interested. BTW so few ask for any document that almost all first time customers also don't ask for it.

So, get a document if it makes you feel better. Trust (or not) a repairer if you are familair with them, or depending on who recommended them, etc., whatever you prefer. But don't assume anyone not giving a document is not "legit".
 

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Wow. What a read. And what a sad commentary for MartinMods. I am so disappointed to hear that this string of events has come to this point. When Conn-Hunter went off to Africa I was hoping beyond hope that MartinMods would “do the right thing” and either finish the horn out of respect for him – or at least return the horn to him in whatever condition it was in at the time. I have read all the posts on here as well as the ones posted by MartinMods and I still can’t understand why LB just wouldn’t have returned the horn to Conn-Hunter when he was begging to just get it back. Whatever happened to “the customer is always right”? If he wanted HIS horn back, he should have gotten HIS horn back. Period. I mean, he’d already paid money – so what’s the problem with just returning his horn in whatever state it was in?

We all know the “If only I hadn’t…..” feeling. I have had similar expensive experiences with muffler shops (they seem to have that reputation!) and I've also had a (much less painful) experience dealing with a sax repair place (via the U.S. mail) - and I won't ever do that again either. I wish there was a simple source of PAIN relief in these situations. I know how much this experience would bother me. I hope that with time and maybe another sax you can put this all behind you Conn-Hunter. In the meantime, God bless you and your family for all the sacrifices you have made to help others, and my sincere best wishes for a more positive 2012!
 

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I want to wipe the slate clean for just a single post and report my recent interaction with Lance. I wrote to him, as promised, and asked for him to return my cut-off Magna alto pinky table parts, along with the missing neck screw. (His latest pinky table mod is very different from the one I got back 85% finished, and if I hung around with Lance thru this evolution, we would be well into year three.) He sent them to me Priority Mail and wouldn't accept my offer of paying for shipping. I don't agree with Lance about the time line of my repair, and why I had to pull the plug after more than 2 years, but he maintains that his style of business requires a suspension of the usual expectations, like, WHEN will it be done??! My situation is rather minor compared to some others, in that my horn languished on the shelf for months, untouched, and even disappeared for a while, out-of-sight-out-of-mind. I have no idea how ConnHunter can resolve what looks like the wrecking of his horn, and I don't have the stomach to research all the ins and outs of who said what when, and why the Hell it came back like it did. Something is just not right with the number of people who are dissatisfied. Bottom line, he takes years to do the job, without the customer knowing. If you pull the plug, you get back whatever was laying on the bench, or put back into the case for later work, in whatever shape it was.
 

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As promised, here is my challenge to Lance:

<Hey Lance, I hope all is well with you. ...I am issuing a challenge, based upon your ability to keep your word and honor, and to find out whether you can identify which parts came from which horn. Some posters imply that you let parts from one horn mix on the table to parts from others.

Send to me now, my Martin Magna stock alto pinky table parts which you agreed to save and return, AND my neck screw which was not returned with the horn. It's very simple. I am going to simply report to SOTW whether you were able to do this, or not, without prejudice. I would be glad to pay the postage, and will immediately reimburse your PayPal account upon receipt.

Thank you, Walter
I want to wipe the slate clean for just a single post and report my recent interaction with Lance. I wrote to him, as promised, and asked for him to return my cut-off Magna alto pinky table parts, along with the missing neck screw. ... He sent them to me Priority Mail and wouldn't accept my offer of paying for shipping. ...
Hi Walter, I took the liberty to focus on your 'challenge' to LB and extract the 'result' from your last post. So if I understand it correctly LB lived up to the challenge and managed to identify the parts you were looking for.
He also sent the parts to you.
 

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Hi Walter, I took the liberty to focus on your 'challenge' to LB and extract the 'result' from your last post. So if I understand it correctly LB lived up to the challenge and managed to identify the parts you were looking for.
He also sent the parts to you.
Sounds that way, but at this point Lance can only try to save some face.
Hardly makes him worth working with or supporting in any way.
JMO
 

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CONN-hunter. Don't you have any Ukranian friends with a lot of body tatoos who have relatives in Washington state? :twisted:
 

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What happened to Gilson's horn is a personal tragedy for him. My heart bleeds for him.

Lance, on the other hand, may either be the ne'er do well that SOTW has in effect chosen to judge and portray him as or merely a really disorganized person consumed with perfection- and "perfection is the enemy of the good" is a trueism which is none the less true for being hackneyed.

Taking on the kind of work he did for a price which while several hundred dollars ( not chump change), probably also approached the complete value of the horn- was a bargain by any standard and is bound to be a proposition based upon love rather than considered business pricing. I don't notice any other techs undercutting or matching his pricing and offering to do the same conversion work.

Lance maintains that one reason the pricing was so low was that Gilson had agreed to allow the horn to be used for marketing purposes. No input from Gilson on this aspect.

Were the purported E-Mails presented by Lance on his hysteric defense site to be correct then the whole thing sums up as a missed communication with tragic consequences. One holds a businessman to a professional standard which Lance has clearly failed to meet- but between Gilson's serviceable but occasionally broken English and Lance's incredibly enthusiastic but unrealistic approach it was a train wreck waiting to happen.

There's a picture of the horn with it's lacquer intact and a new table mechanism about 90% there. True picture? I don't know. According to Lance that was completely undone, the lacquer stripped, and the parts used on another horn after ownership transferred to Eric.

Did Lance get the go ahead (and quite likely to be the result of a misunderstanding) to delaq and go hog wild? "Eric M" doesn't want to get involved- can't say that I blame him- but if you're going to be part and parcel of a worldwide web trashing of an individual that starts out by listing his name, address, and phone number I believe you've already forfeited any right to privacy yourself.

In the end I'd never do business with Lance- probably at all but surely never in a situation where I sent my horn off to him and wasn't in a position to visit it periodically. But he may well be simply a visionary ditz rather than a malevolent criminal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #131 ·
CONN-hunter. Don't you have any Ukranian friends with a lot of body tatoos who have relatives in Washington state? :twisted:
even when I had it's now too late. The horn is already junk. zu spät, and in addition I wish LOB best health in order to work on the horns he still have, finishing them (not forgetting the Bari of a poor Italian guy, who is still waiting in silence crossing fingers in the hope to see his horn again)
Maybe LOB will also have the decency to give back the F#s hole stack of my horn and all new Pisoni pads it had (what happened to them??? I didn't order any repad work, not part of the deal) so we can try to restore it.

Giving back the F#s Hole stack of Sebastian's 10M would be also fine, of course all free of shipping costs. Am I asking too much?:|
 

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What happened to Gilson's horn is a personal tragedy for him. My heart bleeds for him.

Lance, on the other hand, may either be the ne'er do well that SOTW has in effect chosen to judge and portray him as or merely a really disorganized person consumed with perfection- and "perfection is the enemy of the good" is a trueism which is none the less true for being hackneyed. (...)

Lance maintains that one reason the pricing was so low was that Gilson had agreed to allow the horn to be used for marketing purposes. No input from Gilson on this aspect. (...)

There's a picture of the horn with it's lacquer intact and a new table mechanism about 90% there. True picture? I don't know. According to Lance that was completely undone, the lacquer stripped, and the parts used on another horn after ownership transferred to Eric.

Did Lance get the go ahead (and quite likely to be the result of a misunderstanding) to delaq and go hog wild? "Eric M" doesn't want to get involved- can't say that I blame him- but if you're going to be part and parcel of a worldwide web trashing of an individual that starts out by listing his name, address, and phone number I believe you've already forfeited any right to privacy yourself (...).

But he may well be simply a visionary ditz rather than a malevolent criminal.
Excellent summary of the nauseous taste these endless threads give the average SOTWer who happen to read them.

Fascinating to see how the same arguments have been repeated ten times or more, countless members joining the pack to utter definitive judgement of people they had never heard of hours before. Public trial between, as Henry well notices, semi-anonymous parties attacking a perfectly identified person.

On another forum devoted to woodwind instruments, the same affair has been dealt with a cool advice warning to take precautions before dealing with the "defendant"; after one day or two open to interested parties to post an opinion, the thread has been closed; here it has been made sticky...

J
 

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More pictures of the horn were taken and will be posted in the morning. The pictures tell it all. The camera never lies. We were overly gracious in dealing with LOB. We went way beyond the normal boundaries of patience and LOB chose to spit in our faces. Whatever befalls him is on him and what is brought upon him will be by his own hand. Lucky for him , we are not living under Mosaic Law " An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Besides destroying a perfectly good horn, this guy had the nerve to make fun of my cousin's English which really pissed me off. My cousin speaks perfect German and Portuguese. His only mistake was to trust a delusional lunatic with his horn. Not to mention LOB being a compulsive liar. I am washing my hands with this thread. Our intent was to warn others of this predator so they don't suffer the same fate. If anyone else needs to prosecute this thief, please feel free to PM me. Good luck to those who still have their horns held hostage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #135 ·
unbelievable. Pictures arrived Eric! wow!

Butcher is for sure a praise for this man and making my broking English guilty for this butchery is... haha, OK let me have a break to laugh OK.

Lance O. Burton stripped the sax TOTALLY. The money paid, the 2 years and 9 months waited... he should at least have sent the parts he made for the horn. he was paid for!! HE WAS PAID FOR! Is my English here good enough?
It is also betraying.
We were willing to just tell it here and wait for some compensation but now ...

the LH pinky table is not delivered, lacquer stripped (not part of my purchase), Pisoni pads stolen or just removed (where are they? they were new) LH pinky table after 2 years and 9 months not sent with the junk, once was a playing sax.

In October 2010 Lance O. Burton refused to send me the sax back, I insisted 3 times and in the 3rd time he said he would do that but take of the horn ALL parts he made for it.
Then he asked me for some more weeks and I find a solution transferring the rights to Eric so I had a chance to see the horn again. We didn't have any troubles for 1 year until I saw him advertising mouthpieces on SOTW:I kept in touch with Eric and LOB postponed and postponed the finishing of the horn many times.
A leak of respect to the customers. Making small parts and selling on eBay and than trying to start a new ramification of his business with MPCs using SOTW as platform but letting the horns on a corner with the money paid already spent hey???
That is why I shouted loud at that time. with him you just have any chance.
I wish, his defenders here had sent him their horns. Oh man, they would be now very angry.
I got two offers from SOTW colleagues to do a trade on my horn and I refused them to avoid these guys getting cheated..
So I refused a Martin Tenor from Sactopete for my CONN and Phil Engelmann was also interested in trading for smth valuable but I didn't wish these guys to get harmed. I could have now a Martin Tenor here and Sactopete a big headache, I now have a destroyed sax but I am glad I didn't draw these musicians to the fall.
In these new pictures I can see ALL Lob's maleficent nature, ill hearted, ill intentioned. A real technician doesn't do such a thing to a horn, technicians do love instruments, this sir loves himself above all.

Future will tell and this thread will be just a little of light on LOB's darkness.
Concerning his address being revealed and my not...

I am not going to the internet advertising myself as inventor and repairman. I am not the one taking horns and money in advance and keeping proprietary against the will of customers, refusing to send them back when asked repeatedly.
I am not the one who is frustrating customers hiding myself behind a computer, never going to the phone, always finding an excuse for delays and refusing to tell an estimation for completion (enviroguy , as all others, experienced uncountable passed red-lines, make a research on SOTW).

I am not the one who is falsifying emails and distorting the sequence of facts, omitting his own terrible emails where he treats customers and put them under pressure.

at last I will show you pictures taken yesterday.

Decide yourself if there is a justification for destroying this instrument. It has been used just as experiment and for parts.
I can't see what Eric and I could have done to cause such a destruction.
Of course and praise God for that, nobody , no human lives were harmed we will continue to live.
The biggest commandment is "love God with all your heart" and your next as you love yourself" and... what you wish people do to you, do also for them.

Taking money and destroying the beloved proprietary of other people was a sin and what a kind of crime is still in need of clarification..

I wish Lance a looong life with enough time to think about himself and get cured.
For me LOB has a deep wound in his soul and an unruly demand for tribute and recognition, reacting wildly by opposition, oppressing people in a weak position but asking for clemency when he faces a strong adversary.

OK, enough sad.

Just final words.

- you got money for a service you didn't do... you're a betrayer.
- you took parts of the horn and didn't send them back... you're a thief
- you got a state of the art playing sax to make some mods and you sent it back stripped, not functional and damaged... you're an impostor and a charlatan.

FINISHED
 

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Lance, on the other hand, may either be the ne'er do well that SOTW has in effect chosen to judge and portray him as or merely a really disorganized person consumed with perfection- and "perfection is the enemy of the good" is a trueism which is none the less true for being hackneyed.

Taking on the kind of work he did for a price which while several hundred dollars ( not chump change), probably also approached the complete value of the horn- was a bargain by any standard and is bound to be a proposition based upon love rather than considered business pricing. I don't notice any other techs undercutting or matching his pricing and offering to do the same conversion work.

But he may well be simply a visionary ditz rather than a malevolent criminal.
I used to think the very same thing. In fact a year ago on the first big LB thread where Enviroguy and Gilson were relating their similar horror stories. I at first was defending Lance as a victim of the "misguided genius" syndrome leading him astray that you are suggesting here. The main reason I thought that, at first, was that my two transactions with him had basically o.k. results, which made it hard to fully accept the disastorous stories they were recounting. How could this be the same guy, I wondered.

However since then I have looked back in less rose-tinted light at his emails and at the results I got, and realized I was surpressing the awareness that he had pulled the same routine on me, albeit to a lesser degree. That as I just realized on this thread was mainly because he didn't have my sax in his possession. As I have already outlined in previous posts, he basically exhibited the same disregard for what I, the customer wanted and had ordered and paid for in advance, as he has clearly done with everyone else.

And that's the problem with Lance--the customer doesn't even enter into the equation with him at all. For him it isn't a business transaction but a bestowal of his largesse and superior genius upon us in improving our instruments. For him what is supposed to be a service-oriented business where a technician fixes a customer's instrument, is all about HIM and what he can invent, create and give to the world. So it doesn't matter why the customer sent the instrument or ordered the modification, or even if he has already advertised the modification as a "product", because he retains almost total say over what you will get in the end. And if the customer says otherwise, he may either acquiese to them, as in my second experience with the LH table, or hold his ground and go off on even more of a tangent ignoring the customer even more, as with Gilson, Walter, Enviroguy and the others who have had their horns expropriated by him for his experimentation.


Excellent summary of the nauseous taste these endless threads give the average SOTWer who happen to read them.

Fascinating to see how the same arguments have been repeated ten times or more, countless members joining the pack to utter definitive judgement of people they had never heard of hours before. Public trial between, as Henry well notices, semi-anonymous parties attacking a perfectly identified person.

On another forum devoted to woodwind instruments, the same affair has been dealt with a cool advice warning to take precautions before dealing with the "defendant"; after one day or two open to interested parties to post an opinion, the thread has been closed; here it has been made sticky...

J
Well, I'd like to ask if you have done business with the person in question upon which you base these statements? And if not why is it you prefer to doubt the consensus of experience and opinion expressed over the past year on SOTW by those who have, and believe your own opinion based on.....??...what do you base it on? You haven't said and should, don't your think?

You say that some of the people condemning LB have done it having never heard of him until "hours before", but the fact is that everyone on SOTW over the past 4 years has heard of him quite a lot, mostly from his own self-promotion of himself on numerous threads. They have also seen his ads on Ebay and read the claims on his (incomplete) website. Yes there were others who praised him too, myself included at the beginning, but I wised up when he sent me photos of the finished pinky table he was going to send me and it was not at all what he was already hyping the benefits of, selling as a stock "product", had agreed to make for me, and had requred me to pay for in advance.

And speaking of that I have to ask about the crucial thing that puts the lie to any defense of LB as a legit sax technician. What is the justification for his taking money in advance??

Do you know of any sax tech who charges in advance for his work? I certainly don't and that begs the question of what is so special or different about what he does that gives him the right to demand it.

Do you know of a mechanic, or a dry cleaner, or a computer technician who makes you pay in advance for their services? The reason it is SOP to get paid upon completion is because they can keep your property until you pay for the work. So they don't need the money in advance--if you want your goods back you have to pay for what they did for you. The mechanic has a lean on the job and can legally keep your car until he gets paid. The computer tech has your computer, which presumeably you need, and the dry cleaner has the clothes and the legal right to keep them as his own after a specified period of time without payment. None of these people need or ask to be paid in advance and no one would think of doing it. Yet LB has gotten away with it and we have facilitated him in that totally non-standard business method.

So, adding that to the rest of the evidence it appears to me that Lance is not just an inefficient businessman, but a patently dishonest one who has gotten away with it for the very fact of being coddled and excused under the guise of being a poor misunderstood struggling genius. If he weren't, he would run his operation like everyone else, which means doing the job he was asked to do and agreed to do to customer satisfaction, completing it in a timely manner, and returning the customer's property after completion of the job and receipt of payment then, not before even beginning it.
 

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Well, I'd like to ask if you have done business with the person in question upon which you base these statements? And if not why is it you prefer to doubt the consensus of experience and opinion expressed over the past year on SOTW by those who have, and believe your own opinion based on.....??...what do you base it on? You haven't said and should, don't your think?

You say that some of the people condemning LB have done it having never heard of him until "hours before", but the fact is that everyone on SOTW over the past 4 years has heard of him quite a lot (...)

And speaking of that I have to ask about the crucial thing that puts the lie to any defense of LB as a legit sax technician. What is the justification for his taking money in advance??
As said before, yes I've done business with "the person in question", three times, including the making of two pieces made upon LOB's suggestions and based on my own measurements. As also said before, punctual delivery, good communication and perfect results...but these were definitely not complex rebuildings as in the case brought forward by the OP.

My point is not, this has also been said, to take any position about the merit of the case; both parties bring their arguments and each of the SOTW's "judges" make his/her opinion. I simply observe that a near-consensus, as you said, has developed among the contributors to the thread that LOB is a good example of the worst that humanity has produced during the last two millenia (at least). And that the most vociferous of these posters have most certainly never directly dealt with LOB, even if a small number of them, apparently including yourself, have.

We have here a good example of how the Internet can work if unchallenged; do you think all posters would have made the same statements if they had to produce their real names and address after their posts? And let's remember that a near-consensus, even a consensus, is no proof of anything; Galileo might testify, if asked.

Ad the question of pre-payment: almost everything sold or traded on the Internet is now prepaid. I understand the OP and the Chu's next owner were in Germany when the deals were struck. An advance payment doesn't seem exotic to me under these conditions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #138 ·
An advance payment doesn't seem exotic to me under these conditions.
and do you find the pictures before and after Lances work "exotic" maybe?
do you have an idea what he did to other customers horns? apparently not. Concerning the 3 MPC's or parts you purchased it is not to compare with the destruction of a collectors horn in playing condition with new pads and mods, which have all disappeared. Sorry man, your defense of this man sounds for my like BS from swiss cows.

do you have a horn? send it to him for mods. In 3 or 4 years we will see yoú here speaking another language. Frankly.
 

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Unless bought on credit one usually pays for goods in advance even though it may only be a few seconds or minutes til you have your goods. Internet purchases for goods are usually paid in advance.

When one is sending an item for service or repair where the tech has an item of some value that belongs to another, the usual practice is to pay upon completion but before the item is returned.

Those ways of doing business have developed over centuries.

The behavior I have read about, leads me to wonder if there is a substance abuse issue that is occurring. No matter the reason, my sympathy goes to those who have been affected. Unfortunately, another of life's lessons learned.
 

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I have read several times about the "paid in advance" issues with LOB. The examples given (auto mechanic, computer tech, dry cleaners, etc...) are not exactly the same situation. I am not defending what he has done. The examples given are usually employed by someone else.

We have done complete restorations and custom work for customers in the past with no money up front and have been burned every time! Some of them are other shops that we thought we could trust. We just finally sold the last custom job that we performed 5 years ago for alot less money than we had in it. We even had one tenor that we performed major repairs to and then to have the police show up and take it from us because it was a srolen instrument. Guess what, we didn't get paid. We can't tie up those kind of funds for long periods of time, we're not a bank. That's why we ask for 50% down and balance on completion.
 
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