[CONN-hunter]

I'd like to thank everybody for the suggestions written. The intention of this thread is not to "hunt Burton" OK... I could change my ID from CONN-hunter to "Burton-hunter" but people, we use to say here on this side of the ocean... "he is shooting on his own leg" with his practices.
I can't stand quiet. What Eric and I are showing and telling is truth. Now I have confirmation from Eric that the serial number really matches. I still can't believe. The shape of the sax is too bad, too bad.

It had new Pisoni pads.They are all gone! the sax had a great lacquer, gone. Lance didn't like it and criticized it but , it was MY instrument.
I sent a perfect playing Tenor sax and got after more than 2 1/2 years a piece of garbage , with the same serial number!!

here is what the technician in California told me about this horn after an examination, since I love this sax sooo much that I wished because I wished to get it playing again!!

Gilson,

I'm sorry are path couldn't have met earlier. And I'm sorry for your loss. I would take this project on but, don't think you would want to spend that much money on refurbishing this tenor back into a tenor saxophone. You could go out an purchase a new one for what it will take too strip off all the solder this butcher did, not to mention Removing the F# tone hole and thumb rest.
Is this person a auto body repair tech???

Take on this horn would be like building a saxophone. I don't have the time and I'm sure you don't want to spend the money to do it.

Sorry,

DT

this tech doesn't know LB and was not informed about the saga.

I kept contacting and his last eMail was this one on 5/13th

The horn is a real reck and you are missing keys, thumb rest and F# key, tone hole stack.

Wish I could help you out more,

All The Best,

Now, the serial number IS the same.

and, I will not go to saxophone oasis of LOB to read sh.... It is for me a saxophone hell, not an oasis.

What he did on this horn has no explanation.
Bringing together all the facts and informations about him I don't know what to fell,... angry or compassion.

He doesn't repent. He doesn't admit his guilty. It's hard to deal with.

The other customers who have their horns in the "Oasis Garage" are now breathing new hope due to this very thread. Expecting he will push the bottom.

Unfortunately, when he pushes the bottom the results are even worse.

What a nightmare.

 

[Walter Webb]

I am going to write to LOB one last time. I will ask him to send me my stock Martin Magna pinky table parts (Martin geeks know what I'm talking about; that long G# key roller) and the neck screw. It will be my final test of his ability to identify which parts belong to which horn he worked on, as well as a test of his honor to keep his word. I shall phrase it exactly like this, as a challenge to his honor.

I had already written him off in my account book of life, but this thread has inspired me to try one last time. Will keep you posted of his reply. I will also direct him to this thread, although I am certain he is already reading it.

At some point, we, the aggrieved, will have to get some therapy and move on with our lives. No matter how much he raped your horn, it's still just a horn made of brass and not like a genocide of human life. Jesus says that forgiveness, deserved or not, is the only thing that will save us, personally, from the soul-poison of resentment that never ends. Were I not an atheist, I would say that LOB has a special place in Hell, but nooo, the Hell he makes is right here on earth where he lives every day and reaps the whirlwind of his own actions. His business will wither and die, and he will do some menial work to pay his rent and eat food, all the while dreaming of saxophone-making glory as he ages. There is justice, whether you administer it or not. There is redemption, always available in every person's life, should they decide to turn around and seize it, no matter how badly a dude has sunk.

I want this Dealer Evaluation section of SOTW to note that i have never spoken cruelly nor derisively of this deeply flawed man, LOB, and have always hoped for the best for him, and I regret the horrid squandering of his visionary talent and mechanical expertise.

 

[Jazz Is All]

In 3 years, he was unable to complete his Deluxe Pinky Table (not the Selmer style). When I discovered that his Selmer-style mod was really an open-ended research project, and after him keeping my horn for a couple of years, I canceled the Selmer-style mod, and retreated to the Deluxe mod, which he has actually done for people. After another 9 months, I pulled the plug. I got my horn back unfinished, but not butchered. We agreed that he would save and return my old parts, but he kept them. Not cool, nor trustworthy.

Walter, I'm curious as to the timeline on your horn. When did you send it to him and when did you finally get it back? I ask because I originally contacted him about getting the Vintage LH table in the Spring of 2010 and sent the keys to him in early July. Was your horn still in his possession at that time and could you clarify if he actually completed any part of the Deluxe table?

I ask because you say that had actually done that table for others before you, but my modded Vintage model table was just the 3rd one he had ever done, and that was in the summer of 2010. The second was for another member who got his just a few months earlier than mine. That table, as that member told me by PM, had one detail he found annoying in that the brass rollers were too loose on their shafts and actually rattled in sympathetic vibration at certain frequencies. So one of the issues I discussed with Lance beforehand was the material and design of the rollers, specifically to avoid that.

So this other guy's and my tables were really only the 2nd and 3rd of a series of on-going prototypes, although online Lance was already promoting them and the more complicated table mods like they were stock items. He had me pay in advance in June because he said he could then get the materials and prefabricate the keys to speed up the job, which only required a small number of similar steps on stock materials to fabricate. This was total B.S. as proven by his explanation to me in mid August, when he actually did the work, for having changed the design of the Bb key on my job and then how he tried to redo it 2X to make it be like the supposed stock mod he was promoting.

In sum, the idea that Lance is actually an experienced technician and creator of well designed, tested and proven sax modifications is, as I see now, purely the image that he himself has promoted on EBay and SOTW, but not actually borne out by facts. In reality he is a seat-of-the-pants experimenter and DIY tinkerer who tries out his ideas on other people's saxes under the pretense of selling them something that is a sure-fire and proven improvement. That is why he wants you to send him your sax even to do the basic LH table---he needs bodies to experiment and practice his inept rebuilding skills on. He tried to convince me to send him mine just like he got yours and Gilson's and it is clear to me now that that is why.

Burning a pad is usually a mistake done when the key is already installed on the horn and a post close to the pad needs to be removed/adjusted. If there is no protection for the pad the flame will hit without any doubt.
He said he had it on his own sax and then removed it for sending it to you (Jazz Is All). Still a bad procedure by someone claiming to be a horn technician.

Yes he did put my keys on his The Martin to fit them, but as I understand it that was to be able to align the keys to eachother within the table and not to adjust the keycups or the rods. There is no sign of any work being done on the lower end of my rods or on the arm that attaches them to their respective keycups. Furthermore, the C# pad, which is the one he charred, sits inside the bow curve well on the other side just above the C keycup. What post would he possibly have had to move near that on his own sax when all the posts for the table keys are on the other side of the body tube? Since he told me that my tech would have to bend and realign the keys to fit the table to my sax, why would he have to have moved any posts on his sax at all? And if he had to do it wouldn't it have been the ones at the table end rather than at the tone hole end? I'm not sure on how the procedure is carried out, so you'll have to clarify this for me, but I can't see how he would have had to have had a torch anywhere near the C# pad. Therefore I still surmise it happened because it was lying on his work bench too close to something else he was working on.

Wow! The saxophone in MartinMods hands looks the way a saxophone sounds in Ski Johnson's hands.

There is one thing that may be an Achilles' Heel: does he have a business license, and it is legal for him to repair horns. Does he pay business taxes in his town, county, state or Federal? Speaking of Al Capone... it was his failure to pay taxes on income that brought him down. Someone could inquire about his business license-- it's public record. The question is, who has the time and the burning desire to follow this up? It would help if they lived nearby.

If the Grammy Association and Billboard have not so far filed legal proceedings against Ski Johnson for falsely claiming to have been nominated for several Grammies and being a Billboard-Listed musician, and the District Attorney of Seattle hasn't prosecuted him for the sale of tickets for a fraudulent charity event, what hope is there that any of the above could have any effect on Lance's nickel and dime operation? In order to run a charity event (for the American Cancer Foundation no less) you have to be registered as a fund raiser, both in Washington D.C and Washington State. If there were any real teeth to those laws however, Ski would have already have gotten legal heat for his numerous phoney "charity" events.But the guy hasn't been touched and is still out there flogging all those phoney claims 24/7 on TV, in the press, and on internet.

Reality is that State and municipal governments already are overloaded investigating and prosecuting any number of dishonest retail practices among both licensed and unlicensed automotive repair shops and building contractors and can't even get to the tip of the iceberg. The fact that so many of these businesses are flagrantly run without a valid license is a sign of just how hopeless the situation is regarding consumer protection. Just going around controlling gasoline stations to prevent pump-rigging is a full-time operation for state agencies.

Ordinances and laws of that type are unfortunately little consolation in this case because the world is not run by the honest. I mean this sax fraud means a lot to us but put it in perspective: J.P. Morgan say they lost 2 billion dollars and don't know where it went. The FBI says it is going to investigate...naturally....what else can they say....but do you really think anything is going to get done? Sad to say if they can't stop bigtime fraud why would they even bother with petty fraud?

 

[Walter Webb]

As promised, here is my challenge to Lance:

<Hey Lance, I hope all is well with you. There is a gnarly thread on SOTW that has gone on to 6 pages as of today. Seems like many people are pissed off at you and your business practices. Some of the posts are full of resentment and even hatred. My posts give you the benefit of the doubt, and offer redemption should you care to make things right.

I am issuing a challenge, based upon your ability to keep your word and honor, and to find out whether you can identify which parts came from which horn. Some posters imply that you let parts from one horn mix on the table to parts from others.

Send to me now, my Martin Magna stock alto pinky table parts which you agreed to save and return, AND my neck screw which was not returned with the horn. It's very simple. I am going to simply report to SOTW whether you were able to do this, or not, without prejudice. I would be glad to pay the postage, and will immediately reimburse your PayPal account upon receipt.

Thank you, Walter

Walter Webb
160 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959

 

[Walter Webb]

Walter, I'm curious as to the timeline on your horn. When did you send it to him and when did you finally get it back? I ask because I originally contacted him about getting the Vintage LH table in the Spring of 2010 and sent the keys to him in early July. Was your horn still in his possession at that time and could you clarify if he actually completed any part of the Deluxe table?

So, JazzIsAll, at the risk of further brain damage from thinking about this too much, my time line is available for you to read near the end of the Dealer Evaluations/United States sticky called "Lance Burton won't return our horns" here on SOTW. Your point is well-taken that his Deluxe pinky table mod should have been routine by then. Others had this mod before me, and he was offering it on Ebay at the time. It looked really good, and I went for it. Now, I think that the Magna pinky table in stock form is awesome, among the best ever designed, and I was chasing rainbows like a fool riding an imaginary unicorn. Oops, poor me. All told, he kept my horn for 2 years and 3 months.

In Sacramento, CA and the SF Bay area, horn mechanics are able to finish even challenging modifications, not to mention rebuilds on top of that, within 3 months. They allocate their professional time and live within business realities that Lance seems to be unaware of.

Get this: Lance advertises a low B and Bb roller mod for the tips of the lower arms of 1920's split bell saxes, and it looks really good. I am in love with my Holton Rudy Wiedoeft C Melody sax from 1926 (the first sax to have both bell keys on the left side), and have already given it a modern oval G# key. Rollers made of circular metal, well-lubricated, make long arms actuate fast and clean. My Yamaha YBS 62 has rollers all over the place where long arms terminate with a short arm. Bad action is the plague of 1920s horns. Who else has thought of this, and made the parts to make it happen? I am thinking of ordering the parts and having my own guy install them. Yes, I know. "What you are thinking?" I still feel that Lance is brilliant, but unable to run his business. I give him credit, but want to kick his *** at the same time.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I am thinking of ordering the parts and having my own guy install them. Yes, I know. "What you are thinking?"

:shock::shock::shock::shock::faceinpalm::faceinpalm::faceinpalm:

 

[Jazz Is All]

So, JazzIsAll, at the risk of further brain damage from thinking about this too much, my time line is available for you to read near the end of the Dealer Evaluations/United States sticky called "Lance Burton won't return our horns" here on SOTW. Your point is well-taken that his Deluxe pinky table mod should have been routine by then. Others had this mod before me, and he was offering it on Ebay at the time. It looked really good, and I went for it. Now, I think that the Magna pinky table in stock form is awesome, among the best ever designed, and I was chasing rainbows like a fool riding an imaginary unicorn. Oops, poor me. All told, he kept my horn for 2 years and 3 months.

I found your post on that thread and found it clarifies the matter. Here i have excerpted the pertinent dates and info:

Lance got the horn in May of '09, which means he kept it for 2 years, 3 months........I consented originally to the DeLuxe pinky table and a repad/regulation job. After a year, it morphed into his Mk6-style fully articulated/linked pinky table (his ongoing research project), his Conical Tenon neck and body receiver upgrade, a neck "zinger" and 2 vent pips a'la Bonade design. As the seasons passed, I got the picture that this Mk6 pinky table was going to take forever, so I told him to cancel that, and just do the DeLuxe table, which I believe he has done numerous times and sold parts thru Ebay. ...........After several more months (Oct/Nov 2010), when it was obvious it was not going quickly like he said, I decided to demand he finish by Christmas. He emailed back: "OK, Christmas it is."

After Christmas passed, and New Year's 2011, I began to talk of pulling the plug wherever he was in progress. He persuaded me to wait longer.

......I got it on 7/8/11.

So when you sent your horn for the Deluxe LH table it was 14 months before he got mine for the simpler Vintage version.

I just looked at this 2008 thread http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?99782-My-horn-has-been-MartinModded!!!/page2&highlight=martin+mods+pinky+table and see that there were at least 4 people prior to you who he did the LH mod for between Dec 2008 and June of 2009. I have looked for that PM where I thought Lance had said he had only done 2 prior to mine but can't find it and now don't know where I got that idea. I must have been wrong about that and apoligize for that, for in fact he did at least 4 prior to mine...5 if we count him beginning on yours.

Whatever the case, when you initially ordered it in 2009 you were misled in thinking that he had done it "numourous times" when in fact it was only a handful. That is not much of a track record at any rate, and he clearly didn't have it down as the fact that he changed the design on me twice proves. In fact it shows that he was feeling his way and making it up as he went along. That bit he wrote me about the thickness of the brass being the reason he changed the form of the Bb key proves it, because why would he have to change the thickness if this was a well-thought out and proven design? The same goes for his next failed attempt to turn the sow's ear into a silk purse.

Nevertheless, on his website when I ordered it he was already advertising these as a "Product" with product photos and glowing descriptions. That is definitely not the same as giving each new customer a different version of a prototype you have made once or twice and are still actively redesigning on the spur of the moment every time you get a wild hair up your butt. A product is not an improvised solo, it's the head played exactly as written.

In sum.....[Cue Eddie Murphy's voice impersonating Mr. Rodgers] Can you say False Advertising children?

In your case clearly you were led down the garden path with all those other mods he induced you into getting. Those botched incompleted jobs are more than likely the reason he kept your horn long after he had done my LH table job. If the Deluxe table was all he had to, having already completed my keys in August of 2010 it should have been a snap, shouldn't it?

Personally, I think you'd be taking a big risk to even think of sending this guy one red cent for anything else he makes no matter how good it looks. IMO if you want those rollers you should tell him to give you them as compensation for the outrageous length of time he held your horn and for the damage he has done to it.

 

[CONN-hunter]

In Sacramento, CA and the SF Bay area, horn mechanics are able to finish even challenging modifications, not to mention rebuilds on top of that, within 3 months. They allocate their professional time and live within business realities that Lance seems to be unaware of.

Get this: Lance advertises a low B and Bb roller mod for the tips of the lower arms of 1920's split bell saxes, and it looks really good. I am in love with my Holton Rudy Wiedoeft C Melody sax from 1926 (the first sax to have both bell keys on the left side), and have already given it a modern oval G# key. Rollers made of circular metal, well-lubricated, make long arms actuate fast and clean. My Yamaha YBS 62 has rollers all over the place where long arms terminate with a short arm. Bad action is the plague of 1920s horns. Who else has thought of this, and made the parts to make it happen? I am thinking of ordering the parts and having my own guy install them. Yes, I know. "What you are thinking?" I still feel that Lance is brilliant, but unable to run his business. I give him credit, but want to kick his *** at the same time.

dear Walter some brain damage has already happened when you think of ordering smth from him.:TGNCHK:

my policy in general is: liars and betrayers don't deserve support, deserve correction.

and making a mistake once is sad enough, repeating the mistake is an unhappy move. But everyone is free to make mistakes, right?:bluewink:

 

[clwomack]

If you check out his ebay feedback you will see all happy customers who got really cool parts. I wonder how many of these parts were taken from or made using horns of SOTW members, or other unfortunate souls.
Walter, remember the frog and scorpion story? Or "fool me once..." (the original saying, not the modified one by GW Bush.)

 

[CONN-hunter]

Lance is not an idiot. He knows that he depends on eBay to sell and survive. Earlier he used to sell used or refurbished SONY gear, when I recall well what he told me. The majority of these positive feedbacks come from that time.
Making the parts and shipping them quickly is also a smart and reasonable procedure but this is usual business and nothing extraordinary. Considering the delay for our horns it is an unusual practice by Lance, but here is the point...
He made advertising through eBay with his parts and got instruments "outside" of eBay auctions for major projects. That is what happened to me.
At that time as I contacted him over eBay I also saw some SOTW colleagues sending their horns to him, I look at the + eBay feedbacks and thought...OK, the guy should be serious.
After many eMails and his promise that he "couldn't afford dealing badly with costumers" I sent him my sax. He convinced me through the emails that he would do it to 100%. Once your gear is there he makes what he wishes and when he wishes.

A long time ago was a medical doctor here, a colleague telling about his bad experience. Lance put all pads of his horn out and installed his own made pads. The doctor got upset. This was the first alert, but we all ignored that.

Today when somebody have an impressive internet presentation we should not get impressed at all. We need to study in details the history of the tech or dealer. We have to protect each other and share bad and good experiences. That is what I am doing here. That is not a personal vendetta.

We are musicians. We like nice gear, nice horns and MPC's. We don't like being cheated.
When the customer pays, the customer is king! When you send your horn to Lance you become a slave and when you rebell against like I did you get your collectors horn striped.
In short that is what happened.

 

[clarnibass]

I am thinking of ordering the parts and having my own guy install them. Yes, I know. "What you are thinking?"

I have no experience with him and can't tell anyone what to do. But, everyone has to realize that when they buy something they are supporting the seller and their business. It doesn't matter if you are just ordering a product, without sending your saxophone, etc. The moment you buy you are supporting them and their business, even if you personally buy in a way that will prevent you from having problems (e.g. just buy a product through ebay without sending any parts).

Today when somebody have an impressive internet presentation we should not get impressed at all. We need to study in details the history of the tech or dealer. We have to protect each other and share bad and good experiences. That is what I am doing here. That is not a personal vendetta.

Definitely true. Some people get a very good reputations on forums for no real reason. I have experience with one person and one product that recevied nothing but praises on a forum. I bought a couple of things from them was very disappointed. I then realized the praises probably came from people who just didn't know any better. I also think the lack of bad reviews was partly because people didn't want to write bad things about supposedly reputable people/products. For one of those products I did write a review online. for the other I didn't, but if I see someone asking about it I privately write them my experience.

 

[14470]

...but here is the point...
He made advertising through eBay with his parts and got instruments "outside" of eBay auctions for major projects. That is what happened to me.
At that time as I contacted him over eBay I also saw some SOTW colleagues sending their horns to him, I look at the + eBay feedbacks and thought...OK, the guy should be serious.
After many eMails and his promise that he "couldn't afford dealing badly with costumers" I sent him my sax. He convinced me through the emails that he would do it to 100%. Once your gear is there he makes what he wishes and when he wishes.

Right on.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I wanted to mention something that we all know, but seem to have ignored in dealing with Lance. When you go to a legit sax tech they write up a work order specifying what is to be done. Whether they know you or not, they do that. It serves as proof of the job for both them and you and as a claim check for you to get the instrument back, which in a busy shop where you are not a regular might be necessary. Each party has a copy and there is no question about what is to be done. The ticket also is proof for tax purposes for both parties. More importantly, no shop that I know of ever requires even one cent of payment up front.

Lance as we all know never does any of this and I suppose his excuse and the assumption we his clients made is that because he is dealing through internet and the mail, the emails and pms represented the aggreement. As we now know this is not so, especially when he is given an open-ended job to rebuild the horn as he thinks best. Perhaps people got their guard down and accepted this non-standard procedure because he was a touted tech-wizard here on SOTW, but that was a mistake because Lance isn't the first big name member on SOTW who turned out to be scam artist.

In addition, and even worse, we all fell for his poor-mouth story of being the starving artisan-inventor and needing the cash in advance to buy materials and thus insure your job's place in the workline. In my case, the story was that he could then actually get the materials and have the keys pre-fabricated even before receiving the old ones in the mail from me. Aside from how nickel and dime that sounds---imagine going to an auto shop and having them say, "we can't do your brake job unless you give us the money first to buy the discs for it"--it was B.S. anyway, because he got my money in late June but never began any work whatsoever until the beginning of August. In every case cited on here, having the money in advance hasn't speeded things up, it has slowed them down because already having all he's going to get from that sucker, he drops them to fish for more.

Anyway all of the above are non-standard business practice that people let him get away with and it has clearly been a BIG MISTAKE. But of course that's only come to public light in hindsight after the snow job he pulled here on SOTW for the first 2 years wore off and people came forward to wise everyone up to his game.

Not that I would ever send him anything ever again to work on or even buy anything from him, but if some people want to still deal with this guy (or anyone like him) they need to know that they at the very least need to send him a detailed written contract specifying parts and completion date for him to sign and date. It should be sent by certified mail and returned the same way before the job is even sent to him.

More importantly, no one should pay him anything in advance and only pay for the job when it is proven completed and in the shipping carton with full photos to confirm it's condition and shipping readiness. Lance needs to stop being coddled and exist in the real world just like all the other business people who get the work done first in order to earn his money upon delivery of the finished product. That should have happened years ago but unfortunately people were cutting him slack that he never should have gotton simply because he was a big name on the forum. The message is still Caveat Emptor no matter how and where you find out about someone.

Well just my thoughts on the matter for what they're worth, which in this case is too little too late.

 

[CONN-hunter]

hello,

I was looking for more pictures of my horn and I found some in my wife's laptop. One of them showing the serial number. So everyone can compare with the serial number Eric has, when he manages to take a picture of.

I've been contacted by some colleagues who have a story with Lance but , ha for some reason people are afraid to write themselves , to share themselves their experiences here. At least I am any longer alone but much, much more victims could join me in this thread and chime in.

nevertheless,

here some pictures of my horn and AGAIN what Lance Burton made on this sax is unbelievable!! as technician he was supposed to be , as acclaimed inventor and bla,bla, bla... how somebody can take a sax like this in the pictures and transform it in a messing junk ?? after 33 months? and more than 550U$ spent?

 

[CONN-hunter]

sorry, forgot the pic with the serial number. Picture taken at home years ago. In any case before sending the horn all the way back to the "glorious sax land USA".

 

[clarnibass]

When you go to a legit sax tech they write up a work order specifying what is to be done. Whether they know you or not, they do that. It serves as proof of the job for both them and you and as a claim check for you to get the instrument back, which in a busy shop where you are not a regular might be necessary. Each party has a copy and there is no question about what is to be done. The ticket also is proof for tax purposes for both parties.

Not necessarily. If someone asks for a signed document as proof that I have their instrument I give them. If someone wants a document describing what needs to be done I write one (often this is not exactly complete because some of the repairs needed are discovered during the work). Anyway, I guess less than 3% of the people ask me for any of that. The other 97% just trust that it's ok. Some ask what is needed to be done, some only ask after repairs what was done and some don't even care. In years I've never had a problem. I give a receipt after payment when they pick up their instrument and this is also for tax purposes.

 

[FremontSax]

Not necessarily. If someone asks for a signed document as proof that I have their instrument I give them. If someone wants a document describing what needs to be done I write one (often this is not exactly complete because some of the repairs needed are discovered during the work). Anyway, I guess less than 3% of the people ask me for any of that. The other 97% just trust that it's ok. Some ask what is needed to be done, some only ask after repairs what was done and some don't even care. In years I've never had a problem. I give a receipt after payment when they pick up their instrument and this is also for tax purposes.

The tech who does most my work has my cell phone number. When he runs into an issue or wants to change the plan he gives me a call, we talk... we either make a decision or I stop by his shop and we look and talk some more. Communication is a great way to keep your customers happy.

 

[CooolJazzz]

There was discussion a while ago in response to an unrelated thread...where someone basically suggested that it was never good to give a bad review of any person or product. It was suggested that writing a bad review was more harmful than helpful, and served little purpose other than to potentially and unfairly harm someone's reputation. It was suggested that negative reviews not even be allowed on SOTW.

Can anyone read this thread and NOT see how negative reviews in cases like this are not only helpful, but necessary and important as well?

 

[CONN-hunter]

Communication is a great way to keep your customers happy

and honesty!
LB can communicate as good as Joseph Goebbels could. He'd be able to sell refrigerators to Eskimos in Alaska.

sorry for being sarcastic but after uncountable eMails and deadlines what I got was a pristine instrument destroyed.

Don't rely on communication only. :computer:

you never know who can be sitting on the other side.

go for checked, tested and passed, established good dealers and techs.

.

 

[Jazz Is All]

Not necessarily. If someone asks for a signed document as proof that I have their instrument I give them. If someone wants a document describing what needs to be done I write one (often this is not exactly complete because some of the repairs needed are discovered during the work). Anyway, I guess less than 3% of the people ask me for any of that. The other 97% just trust that it's ok. Some ask what is needed to be done, some only ask after repairs what was done and some don't even care. In years I've never had a problem. I give a receipt after payment when they pick up their instrument and this is also for tax purposes.

Well, o.k. I guess I was generalizing from the 2 techs I've been to and I imagine with techs who have long time regular customers there might be a more relaxed way of operating based on the trust developed. However, although as you point out, the work order might not be complete, but generally they put down the main items to be fixed, which is the reason the horn is there. My tech doesn't sign it of course, but it is in his handwriting and has his business info printed on the form, so I think that has legal standing (were that necessary, which it isn't). The other tech I went to in N.Y. gives a repair tag with the things to be done specified on it. They keep the duplicate and then they attach a computer receipt with all the important data printed on it: their company info, customer name address etc, work order number, date time, Sax model and serial number, and the overall type of work to be done. Both these places have your cell number and call you if anything arises. So when you go to p.u. the horn and pay, not only is it within the time frame they told you but there have never been any surprises of the kind we are seeing from LOB.

My whole point is that as the old saying goes, "Get it in writing because word of mouth is gone with the blast of hot air that creates it". (Actually that's not an old saying, I just made it up, but it's what millions of people who have gotten burned by a handshake contract learned the hard way).