[AmandasDad]

Gentlemen,
This situation has gone on long enough! Sadly, CONN-hunter was (apparently) taken in by an unscrupulous person! His options, as stated before, are limited. A criminal trial would do him no good and (in all probability) LO Burton would get off scott free! What is needed in this situation is a civil suit and not in small claims court!!! You sue this sc*mbag for actual damages and then you nail his *ss with punitive damages!! At the very least you can get his business filing for bankruptcy (which, when you think of it, is probably what he would do in order to not have to pay anything....) and who knows? Maybe you'll even get enough money back so you can replace your sax!

+1

Although I'm amazed that this would not be considered a criminal act.
Probably a bad analogy, but if I borrowed somebodies car and removed their high-end rims/tires and replaced them with 4 spare 'donuts' would they have no criminal recourse.
Oh, I also removed the stereo, but did plug it up with a piece of sheet metal.

The only way this is going to stop is if someone (or a few) take him to court.
If not only those on boards like this will know to avoid Lance.
JMHO.

 

[Henry D]

MartinMods position (no endorsement of these assertions implied- merely offering them up as "the other side")

http://www.saxophoneoasis.com/gilsonresponse2.html

The maximum levels available in small claims court vary from state to state- but a claim for more than the value of the horn (and a tenor of that vintage in any condition will probably be assessed at a thousand bucks if you're lucky) would involve substantial legal representation. You'd, quite frankly, basically be asking to be victimized twice. The limits in the small claims courts are in all cases probably higher than any likely award and you could represent yourself.

Sometimes life simply sucks- this may well be one of those instances.

 

[rleitch]

From his communications on this website and elsewhere, I have always had the strong sense that Lance is mentally ill. This thread has not lead me to question that belief.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I think it is a bad analogy. The horns weren't just loaned, there was an agreement (contract) to work on them (unlike your car analogy). Getting around what skills were used to do the contracted work is the problem here, as I see it. Oh, it probably could be proven that the work was sub-standard, even deceitful, but it would require a parade of "expert" witnesses years down the road. Us viewing photos here on SOTW is not the level of proof required in court.

But that's not all . . . bringing a civil suit against someone in the U.S. by someone living in Germany is not all that easy. It would most likely involve lots of upfront money to even start the process and then endless trips across the ocean to make appearances only to have them continued on some hoked-up excuse by the defense. Anyone who has ever been in the system knows those games. While the excuses for continuance after continuance may be legit, they really serve to discourage witnesses - eventually the plaintiff and the witnesses just can't stand the freight and quit making appearances. At that point the defense declares READY and the case will be dismissed when no one from the plaintiff's side is available. I've seen these tactics hundreds of times in criminal court.

This too applies to out-of-state law suits - even across-state suits. Lawyers don't come cheap and endless days off of work for court, hearings, depositions, etc. can hurt everyone. True, if there was someone local to this fellow, it is possible, but one plaintiff? I am not a lawyer so won't get into class-action suits but I doubt if this fellow (Burton) has enough money to even pay the lawyer's bills. That is one definition of being lawyer-proof. DAVE

 

[DannyMetalC]

I really have no business posting in here but I will share an observation:

I am amused by how he tries to justify the shoddy Alt F# patch by accounting for "stress from the thumbrest." No doubt that brazing in the patch may have annealed the surrounding area slightly... but I have seen other saxes with the Alt F# removed with a sensibly and perfectly blended patch... the fact is there just isn't enough stress from the thumbrest to actually deform the body tube which has a very strong structure.

Even in the rare case that there was, any competent tech could unsolder the body from the bow and fix it with a tapered mandrel... thereby work hardening it again...

So apparently now he is trying to play engineer too...

Oh, and I am terribly sorry ConnHunter and Eric, and all the others affected by this. This whole situation is shocking to me... I am a great fan of vintage Conns.

 

[CooolJazzz]

No way to bring criminal charges? Think again...

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Mail+Fraud

Read the entire page...it's not that long. Any good prosecutor would be able to apply the expanded and amended Mail Fraud statute simply because what Lance is doing involves shipping instruments back and forth.

"In recent years Congress has amended the mail fraud statute twice. In 1988 Congress added section 1346, which states that the term "scheme to defraud" includes a scheme to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. In 1994 Congress expanded the use of the mails to include any parcel that is "sent or delivered by a private or commercial interstate carrier." As a result of these amendments, the mail fraud statute has become a broad act for prosecution of dishonest and fraudulent activities, as long as those crimes involve the mails or an interstate carrier".

They got Al Capone for tax evasion. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they could get Lance for the same thing if he failed to report any of the money he received from customers as income. Incompetence may not be a crime, but I'd be willing to bet that there are a variety of criminal charges that could be brought against Lance if an aggressive prosecutor had a mind to...Mail Fraud and possible Tax Evasion just for starters. Probably not likely to happen, but any eager or fledgling prosecutor trying to build a name for himself would probably love to have a crack at someone like Lance.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I'm sure everyone on here or one of their friends has had a bad experience with a building contractor where they paid a lot of money up front for materials and then either got totally shoddy work or the guy never actually finished the job but kept the money. I know of several people including my own sister who got taken to the cleaners, and guess what, getting a legal settlement in most cases never occured. It's a small claims court thing usually, which means that you have to pay a lawyer yourself beforehand and then you have to prove that you were taken. That isn't always easy, and then even if you get a favorable judgement actually getting the damages and the legal fees out of the guy is another story entirely. You can get non-payment judgement after non-payment judgement and the guy still is out there thumbing his nose at you, or just skips the state if the Sheriff ever actually is called into action on the case. What can you do? Zilch! which is what these guys know in advance and why they don't usually care. You can't get blood from a stone.

Auto mechanics are another bunch who can pull the same kind of thing, even at name dealerships. Most people don't know what is under the hood of their car and these guys can be changing out good parts for bad at will and you'd never know it. They tell you your catalytic convertor is burnt out just because the little light stays on and it's going to cost over a grand to get it replaced. You've already signed the estimate which is also a mechanics lean and you need the car and don't have time to look around for another shop, so you don't question it and give them the go ahead. After the job is done they show you the part as proof...See, here it is, the burned out CC....except it's the same old fried one they've already shown to lots of other fish, all of whom are none the wiser.

Dishonesty of this type is commonplace simply because it is so hard to legally prove. The only difference with LOB is that as Rory says, he probably is more deranged than just plain old dishonest. Some kind of meglomania most likely is my guess.

 

[Dave Dolson]

CoolJazzz: At least you cited a section - a law that could be potentially used to prosecute Burton. So many just don't like what happened and claim a "crime" was committed. We've been through this before on SOTW.

Given the leeway held by federal prosecutors over what cases they choose to bring and which ones they don't want to bother with; AND the low level of loss here (like I wrote before, it is a major loss to the customers but in the big scheme of federal crimes, this is peanuts), even if a new prosecutor wanted to charge this case, I doubt if U.S. DOJ would approve it. And, when some contractual failure occurs (as it appears to have failed in this matter), that will almost always cause a prosecutor to walk away from it.

But even before the case reaches a prosecutor, there will be a problem of interesting some federal agency into even opening a case because crimes presented to federal prosecutors almost always come from a federal law enforcement agency. Even local police and sheriff's deputies have to garner the FBI's or ICE's (or whatever they call themselves these days) attention to bring a case involving federal crimes.

How about postal inspectors, you ask? Maybe; but I suspect the statute you linked was intended for out and out fraud cases, not matters where someone wasn't satisfied with the level of service they received after entering into a contract. We all may be incensed by Burton's conduct but a prosecutor must look at a potential case from all angles and anticipate possible defenses. The civil nature of this incident would be tough to overcome.

You should have seen the hoops we had to go through to bring a video-piracy case in federal criminal court, even when the statutory financial limits of the felony copyright laws were exceeded. It was a "sales job", not a matter of merely interpreting the law.

That is why we (the Motion Picture Association of America from which I am retired) often took copyright cases to local jurisdictions and charged INSTEAD a case of false labeling of pirated cassettes and DVDs (which weren't copyright violations, even though copyrights were infringed). Or we went the civil route and filed ex parte actions in federal civil court. That allowed us to conduct civil searches with law enforcement enforcing a court order and then the pirate would have to settle with our lawyers after having some (or in some cases, all) of his property seized.

Sorry to keep going on these issues but it appears many don't fully understand the processes and what is required to be successful. "Involve the police" and "sue Burton" are easily said, but often not practical. DAVE

 

[Jazz Is All]

No way to bring criminal charges? Think again...

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Mail+Fraud

Read the entire page...it's not that long. Any good prosecutor would be able to apply the expanded and amended Mail Fraud statute simply because what Lance is doing involves shipping instruments back and forth.

"In recent years Congress has amended the mail fraud statute twice. In 1988 Congress added section 1346, which states that the term "scheme to defraud" includes a scheme to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. In 1994 Congress expanded the use of the mails to include any parcel that is "sent or delivered by a private or commercial interstate carrier." As a result of these amendments, the mail fraud statute has become a broad act for prosecution of dishonest and fraudulent activities, as long as those crimes involve the mails or an interstate carrier".

They got Al Capone for tax evasion. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they could get Lance for the same thing if he failed to report any of the money he received from customers as income. Incompetence may not be a crime, but I'd be willing to bet that there are a variety of criminal charges that could be brought against Lance if an aggressive prosecutor had a mind to...Mail Fraud and possible Tax Evasion just for starters. Probably not likely to happen, but any eager or fledgling prosecutor trying to build a name for himself would probably love to have a crack at someone like Lance.

Al Capone was the head of an organized criminal organization making millions through criminal activity and violence...on top of being a murderer. Lance O Burton is a fly-by-night musical instrument tech who remodels woodwinds in a damp garage and doesn't have a pot to **** in to show for it. Do you seriously think the U.S. prosecutor's office is going to spend even a millisecond of consideration, let alone any money or time on going after him? Please!

 

[CooolJazzz]

Do you seriously think the U.S. prosecutor's office is going to spend even a millisecond of consideration, let alone any money or time on going after him? Please!

No, I absolutely don't seriously think that. I was just pointing out that there are sometimes other ways to skin a cat...not saying that the cat was anywhere near worth skinning. Some people were saying that no official crime has been committed. I was saying that perhaps certain laws *could* apply if someone wanted to push the issue. Do I think it's worth anybody's time to do that, or even to seek any sort of legal recourse in civil court? No I don't. I doubt Lance has enough resources to pay what he owes people even if they sued him and/or forced him into bankruptcy. Winning in court doesn't mean anyone would ever see more than a few cents on the dollar of what Lance owes them. It would indeed be a waste of time. I did go out on the limb of exaggeration about a prosecutor possibly welcoming such a case. Yeah, that's pretty silly...but the point I was trying to make was that there ARE criminal laws that could apply if you wanted to get technical about it. Just not the same laws most people might have thought about.

 

[Walter Webb]

Everyone is trying to think of a way file lawsuits, or claims against LOB, and all the solutions are too dicey or expensive to really implement. There is one thing that may be an Achilles' Heel: does he have a business license, and it is legal for him to repair horns. Does he pay business taxes in his town, county, state or Federal? Speaking of Al Capone... it was his failure to pay taxes on income that brought him down. Someone could inquire about his business license-- it's public record. The question is, who has the time and the burning desire to follow this up? It would help if they lived nearby.

 

[Henry D]

Right up front I'd be astounded if any of the affected clients had ever bothered to get a written contract. E-mail really doesn't count since it can be easily altered to say whatever one wants.

Absent that- this is just gossipy frothing.

 

[sonnymobleytrane]

Wow! The saxophone in MartinMods hands looks the way a saxophone sounds in Ski Johnson's hands.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Henry: Please excuse my use of the word contract, as when two people agree to do something of a business nature. You are right, probably not a REAL contract but I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue that. DAVE

 

[patrik roseen]

I have a really bad feeling about where this thread is heading. Situations like this where several persons try to come up with the best way to harm another human being is not something I personally support. It is easy to get emotionally involved and say things which do not look very bright when emotions have cooled down a bit.

Even joking about any type of punishment be it ropes or clarinets could make this go utterly wrong. Who nows what someone might be encouraged to do...on any side of this story or even some party not even involved.

It is possible to make people agree to any settlement through brutal force (yes history has shown) after dragging them through the dirt first. But it is also possible to come to an agreement if both sides are allowed to keep their dignity through the process, coming out with a sense of 'yes, I am glad it is finally settled and I am still here'. Anyone looking at the prospect of coming out removed of all dignity will fight to the bitter end. Let's not go there.

 

[clwomack]

I have a really bad feeling about where this thread is heading. Situations like this where several persons try to come up with the best way to harm another human being is not something I personally support. It is easy to get emotionally involved and say things which do not look very bright when emotions have cooled down a bit.

Even joking about any type of punishment be it ropes or clarinets could make this go utterly wrong. Who nows what someone might be encouraged to do...on any side of this story or even some party not even involved.

It is possible to make people agree to any settlement through brutal force (yes history has shown) after dragging them through the dirt first. But it is also possible to come to an agreement if both sides are allowed to keep their dignity through the process, coming out with a sense of 'yes, I am glad it is finally settled and I am still here'. Anyone looking at the prospect of coming out removed of all dignity will fight to the bitter end. Let's not go there.

 

[Walter Webb]

All forms of violence and retribution suck. They only make a bad situation worse. All I want is for the people who have horns in his closet to get them back, pronto, in the best condition possible. Do no more harm. All I want for myself would be my Martin Magna pinky table parts back, as he promised, AND the neck screw he left off.

 

[Henry D]

Henry: Please excuse my use of the word contract, as when two people agree to do something of a business nature. You are right, probably not a REAL contract but I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue that. DAVE

Dave-
And of course it's quite possible for a contract to exist merely upon the acceptance of an offer with no written form whatsoever. What kills this for prosecutorial purposes is the radically different view of what was agreed to by the two parties involved. After the fact- years after the fact- assertions of "this and that were what we agreed to" go nowhere for the most part. Might as well call "Judge Judy"- at least it'd make good TV for the couch potato set.
Henry

The physical violence angle sounds over the top but that the going in post lists his name, address, and phone number and the SOTW community- self included- overwhelmingly decided based upon internet postings (heck, Gilson could actually be Lindsey Lohan off on a bender and yucking it up on her home computer at sax players' expense for all we know) that Lance is the antichrist.

I wouldn't do business with him and reccomend that no one else do so without a clearly enforceable contract detailing deliverables, costs, and timelines. I figure that message is the only real result to be sought from this thread- aside from commiserating with ConnHunter on the disaster that befell his horn.

 

[saxtek]

Hi Lance!

I'm addressing this post to Lance O. Burton because I'll bet he is reading this thread every day.

About a year ago, you contacted me, asking me to install your modifications on local saxophone players' horns. By that time, your reputation had already become very bad and I refused, not only because I didn't want to get involved but because I had all the work I could handle already.

Lance, I get requests to do modifications similar to the ones you do. Sometimes I think they are unnecessary or foolish, but if I can do what the customer wants, quickly and efficiently, at a price that fits the customer's budget, and make a profit, I will perform the necessary modifications. After all, the repair business, (and Lance, that is what you are, a repairman), the repair business is a SERVICE business. Do what the client asks, or don't do it at all. If you do more or less without permission, you are a con artist.

 

[Sigmund451]

We have all seen the rise and fall of a number of a number of self made internet legends. The loss that occurs in their wake is more than economics, it takes its toll on the personhood of the victim. This is where loss moves from being unfortunate to tragic. Each time we become more jaded we loose something precious.

Those who only take cannot begin to understand because they lack the critical empathic element that binds us together. Always on the outside they reach in unaware of the magnitude of their actions. Their consciousness cannot know a world outside of need.