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A LOT of different work on the upper stack. Right up front the first horn has a different B arm (look at the curve by the touch; smooth arc on the first, stylish right angle edge on the other). The first horn also has the A touch riding on the same rod as the B; and there's a post to separate the two. The second pic has the A touch on a completely separate solid rod (with a "bridge" connection to the upper stack octave mech portion) and so that post is not there. Both those keys and associated tubes/rods/ et al are simply different pieces altogether. There's no indication that a post was removed- though that might be as a result of surprisingly good workmanship... something evident no where else in the second picture.

The two neck pictures also have different ferrules (the returned one has a groove, the "before" one is smooth).

More pictures may well clarify all this- and there may well be a completely understandable explanation- but they really do appear to be pictures of completely different horns.

Conn Hunter has already seemingly been through the wringer- before a public witch hunt (either way!) a calm examination of what's up is probably appropriate.
 

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It's easy to see why the repair tech you took it to advised you to write it off.

There were a LOT of changes made/ work partly done.

There appears to be no trace of the forked Eb tonehole removal on the lower stack- odd, since the chromatic F# tonehole patch was so slipshodly done. This bit (forked Eb hole patch) would then be really skilled workmanship. The lower stack itself would have to have been redone since the touch for the E is different (rides on its own arm) on models with the forked Eb. Less posts as well.


The whole pinky cluster set up ( all associated rods and mechanism for G#/C#/B/Bb) is, of course, MIA. No surprise, since that would be part and parcel of reworking the cluster.

It appears that Martin Mods simply bit off more than he could chew. A d**&*d shame he chose someone elses horn to chew on.
 

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I'm not sure I got that impression as much as pointing out dis-similarities(?) between the two pictures.
It seems as though parts were commandeered from CONN-hunters horn to use on other horns (or kept to try to reproduce?), then replaced with inferior parts.

This guy seemed to have done similar tactics with others.
If this all true (and I do not doubt that it is) I find it hard to believe nobody's take him to court.
Seriously- it just beggars belief. The serial numbers match- surely its the same body but ay carumba... double, no triple ay carumba; old Lance must have done an unbelievable amount of screwing around to get to where the horn is now at- much of it hard to fathom.

That current location, as I see it, is a very slim step above "scrap metal".
 

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If taken to court at all it would be a civil action- probably in small claims court. Jurisdiction, given all the moving about and mailing would be iffy. Cost would almost certainly eat up more than any sums involved and getting a judgement and getting cash are always two separate events in a civil action.

I agree with DD- no way on earth any public prosecutor would consider expending the resources to pursue this in criminal court (either local or Federal), loathsome though it surely appears to be.
 

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Same thing I thought.

There's no doubt but that the whole upper and lower stack have been reworked. It's a different set of key work; just look at the various pix and you'll see that the A touch is now a completely different design than the original separate rod and the extension to the arm for operating the Bis off the F# cup and its associated rod is completely different- as is the G# hold-down set up. Much of this goes down to changes needed to rework the G# into the new pinky cluster design. The lower stack would have to change, including the posts, to accomodate the removal of the forked Eb set up.

Sounds straightforward to mod until you get into the details. This horn is no longer functional either way- about half done, it's surely a mess.

A pic of the two serial numbers would be reassuring- but there's enough there that I'm prepared to believe ConnHunter on his assertion that they're pictures of the same horn.

I'd like to see the back of the lower stack where the alt Eb tonehole was. I understand posts can be taken off and any marks buffed off on a delaq'd horn with no marks- but there surely ought to be evidence of the patched tonehole unless Lance is a cosmetic wizard. None of his other work indicates such a talent and the pix thus far show no evidence on the back of the body of the tonehole's removal. That, for me, would completely settle it beyond doubt.
 

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There are a couple of photos showing the trill F# tone hole removed and patched.
Clumsy and barbaric. I was simply curious as to how the alt Eb tone hole had been done. I'm sure it's just the angles of the pictures but there hasn't been any sign of work there.

I, as stated several times, still believe that it's the same body with a lot of half done work on it and believe both that this thread is a public service and that ConnHunter got taken to the cleaners in a really repugnant manner.

As an addendum; Yeah- it would make a difference to me if it wasn't the same body. I'd still find Lance to be someone who has gone way, way, way past the line but I'd also be more than a little offended by the OP's lack of care in posting the facts of the matter were that to be the case. And, while the table mod on the other horn cited here was surely also incredibly shoddy as business conduct I sort of agree that the three pads involved should have been replaced in any case as a given, given the work done on the mechanism.
 

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MartinMods position (no endorsement of these assertions implied- merely offering them up as "the other side")

http://www.saxophoneoasis.com/gilsonresponse2.html

The maximum levels available in small claims court vary from state to state- but a claim for more than the value of the horn (and a tenor of that vintage in any condition will probably be assessed at a thousand bucks if you're lucky) would involve substantial legal representation. You'd, quite frankly, basically be asking to be victimized twice. The limits in the small claims courts are in all cases probably higher than any likely award and you could represent yourself.

Sometimes life simply sucks- this may well be one of those instances.
 

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Right up front I'd be astounded if any of the affected clients had ever bothered to get a written contract. E-mail really doesn't count since it can be easily altered to say whatever one wants.

Absent that- this is just gossipy frothing.
 

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Henry: Please excuse my use of the word contract, as when two people agree to do something of a business nature. You are right, probably not a REAL contract but I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue that. DAVE
Dave-
And of course it's quite possible for a contract to exist merely upon the acceptance of an offer with no written form whatsoever. What kills this for prosecutorial purposes is the radically different view of what was agreed to by the two parties involved. After the fact- years after the fact- assertions of "this and that were what we agreed to" go nowhere for the most part. Might as well call "Judge Judy"- at least it'd make good TV for the couch potato set.
Henry

The physical violence angle sounds over the top but that the going in post lists his name, address, and phone number and the SOTW community- self included- overwhelmingly decided based upon internet postings (heck, Gilson could actually be Lindsey Lohan off on a bender and yucking it up on her home computer at sax players' expense for all we know) that Lance is the antichrist.

I wouldn't do business with him and reccomend that no one else do so without a clearly enforceable contract detailing deliverables, costs, and timelines. I figure that message is the only real result to be sought from this thread- aside from commiserating with ConnHunter on the disaster that befell his horn.
 

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There is no implied endorsement in furnishing the following link, merely a completion of the record contained in this thread. If we're going to publish all the multiple and consistent allegations from several different and unrelated parties of wrongdoing on Mr. Burton's part we ought to also at least point out his averations of events;

http://www.saxophoneoasis.com/justicesystem.html

If nothing else it appears that at one point ConnHunter's horn had a different and functional pinky table installed and that it still had lacquer at that time (middle set of pix- surely appearing to be of a Conn NW). The last set of pix are of a completely different horn; note the beveled edges on the toneholes. Perhaps a picture of what he terms his "Ultimate" table, because it sure has nothing else to do with the Conn.
 

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What happened to Gilson's horn is a personal tragedy for him. My heart bleeds for him.

Lance, on the other hand, may either be the ne'er do well that SOTW has in effect chosen to judge and portray him as or merely a really disorganized person consumed with perfection- and "perfection is the enemy of the good" is a trueism which is none the less true for being hackneyed.

Taking on the kind of work he did for a price which while several hundred dollars ( not chump change), probably also approached the complete value of the horn- was a bargain by any standard and is bound to be a proposition based upon love rather than considered business pricing. I don't notice any other techs undercutting or matching his pricing and offering to do the same conversion work.

Lance maintains that one reason the pricing was so low was that Gilson had agreed to allow the horn to be used for marketing purposes. No input from Gilson on this aspect.

Were the purported E-Mails presented by Lance on his hysteric defense site to be correct then the whole thing sums up as a missed communication with tragic consequences. One holds a businessman to a professional standard which Lance has clearly failed to meet- but between Gilson's serviceable but occasionally broken English and Lance's incredibly enthusiastic but unrealistic approach it was a train wreck waiting to happen.

There's a picture of the horn with it's lacquer intact and a new table mechanism about 90% there. True picture? I don't know. According to Lance that was completely undone, the lacquer stripped, and the parts used on another horn after ownership transferred to Eric.

Did Lance get the go ahead (and quite likely to be the result of a misunderstanding) to delaq and go hog wild? "Eric M" doesn't want to get involved- can't say that I blame him- but if you're going to be part and parcel of a worldwide web trashing of an individual that starts out by listing his name, address, and phone number I believe you've already forfeited any right to privacy yourself.

In the end I'd never do business with Lance- probably at all but surely never in a situation where I sent my horn off to him and wasn't in a position to visit it periodically. But he may well be simply a visionary ditz rather than a malevolent criminal.
 

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Resorting to insults won't make your case progress an inch. And, for the last time, I'm not defending LOB in this particular case and understand your frustration. I simply found, and still find interesting, how a personal bad experience you had with Lance Burton can turn into such uncontrolled reactions and statements.
J
Agree wholeheartedly.

I myself am not, will not, and never have, sided with Lance Burton in this mess.

But sending me full screen hysteric PM's accusing me of taking up for him cause me to figure that the pairing of Conn Hunter (the PM sender) and MartinMods (the obsessed would be visionary who is seemingly unable to reconcile reality with theory in acoustics or business) was a match made in H***. The outcome, well, errr, uhhh, ...

That MartinMods in whatever incarnation is a horrendous choice of venues to mail a horn off to is, I believe, beyond debate.

That an eight page Jerry Springer meets SOTW extravaganza is apropos to the situation is a bit iffy in and of itself.
 

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Thanks for the thoughtful post. It dovetails with what I had concluded based upon reading around after my initial kneejerk reaction fo ConnHunter's undeniable disaster.

Bad enough up until the "big blowup" between the two of them, but after the transfer of the horn and the inadvertant greenlight to go for it from Eric the cousin(it seems that for LB anything other than a full stop with lights and flags would probably constitute a green light) things really went into full Frankenstein mode.

Though ill-will from all three involved and a trashed horn is the end result, really, "A darned shame in so many regards," about sums it up for me.

I'm still not sending my horn to Lance...
 
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