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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i have an old sax, really nice, but it has been relacquered!:shock: :shock:
how much does delacquering cost? is it worth it? will that improve the sax or make it worse?
thanks,
Dan
 

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interesting problem , I've been wondering myself about it. I have a relaquer the Martin, that's why I got it cheaper, and I am happy with it, but can't help wondering: does it matter?

I mean: if a relaquered horn has inflicted changes to the original tone, a de-laquer horn should have tonal changes as well (compared to the original tone when the horn was was made and meant to be...) and are we so entirely sure that laquer has all that much influence on the sound altogether?

I mean, the shape of the mouth and embouchure of the player, then the mouthpiece, The reed (?) and the neck (shape and materials), then the shape of the saxophone (and to some extend the material is made of) but the laquer? Can anybody substantiate these claims abot the laquer influence on the sound other than being a purist's myth? And again, in what way a de-laquer job appears to be more legit than a re-laquer job in relation to the original sound?:?
 

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I had the lacquer taken off my Mark VI alto - just to see. It's hard to tell if if actually made a difference because I also had a repad. I just wanted a delacquered Mark VI Alto. Call me crazy. My VI tenor has naturally become nearly free of lacquer - it escaped on it's own. Just want my alto to look similiar.

NOw if it's not going to change the value and you want no lacquer. Then go for it. I wouldn't count on a huge tone difference.
 

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when it comes down to looks no objections, to each his own and delaquered is just as good as any finish if that's what+ takes your fancy, why not. I have noticed, by the way, a lenghty and interesting topic on laquer (pro and cons) with considerable, serious and less serious dissertations on the matter on this forum.
 

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The laquer is used to protect the surface from corrosion and appearance, if you remove it the horn will start to green or red unless you wax it.
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I don't think its the lacquer or no lacquer that is feared but the Buffing to get there that is in question. Obviously if a horn gets buffed to remove scratches and residue as the lacquer is removed some metal and perhaps too much metal can be removed. The resonance in the tube of a horn can be affected some what, that even being a debate, but for certain the strength of the horns posts would be resting on a thinner structure which will make the horn less durable.
Take a Bundy II, it probably could be buffed to 1/2 its thickness and still be stronger than an Evette Schaeffer from the 60's on. The sound wouldn't be affected but its durability would be.
Take an already thin brass tube of some other horns and Buff them and you will most assuredly make them thinner and less sturdy.....the sound affect debate rages elsewhere, and will probably continue as long as people have "feelings" about it.
I prefer some plating or lacquer as the brown toilet look of an ugly old tainted brass tube doesn't affect my sound but affects my looking at it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
by the way, i now believe the sax is a 'Hohner Pure Tone'
so, what do you think, is a relacquered pure tone better than a de-lacquered puretone?
 

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Well my horn was delacquered prior to me owning it, so whether I feel good or bad about it, that's the way it is. Some buffing occoured because serial marks were partly erased (they are usually where the worst scratch marks are produced by repeated contacts with one's belt buckle ) and I just recently recoverd them, hidden under a key (funny that I found someone else in Germany with the exact same horn in the same unusual for a Martin color scheme (brass and chrome) with the same re-lacquer done and erasing of he marks.

However I do not notice any perceivable diminished thickness of the metal (though it must be there...) nor is any damage on any posts allinement to be spotted anywhere.

About stripping the horn bare, I concour to think that it will, in time, depending on many factors, develop some tarnish either green or red (the dreaded red rot), waxing helps but has to be repeated, I seem to remember someone ( a shop on their page on internet http://www.woodwind-shop.com/saxprocedures.html which is not responding now) talkin of a bright dip http://www.epi.com/metal-finishes/bright-dip.html here a more technological sort
 

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SearjeantSax said:
by the way, i now believe the sax is a 'Hohner Pure Tone'
so, what do you think, is a relacquered pure tone better than a de-lacquered puretone?
ok, you are the pure-tone guy I've answered before:)

I don't think it matters all that much to the value whether it is with or without laquer. The Hohner family boasts good vintage keilwerth-like horns not uncommon in Germany or thereabouts but it hardly ever fetches premium money. It is undervalued and worth keeping. I've had a shot a couple of times on the internet to this kind of sax without ever buying one. Tenors beautifully engraved tipically go, in very good state, for about 200 to 300 euros.:shock:
 

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A de-laquered re-laquered horn is still a re-lac without the laquer. If it plays nice just leave it alone
Dave
 

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I delaquered my main tenor because the laquer was damaged and worn in areas and not very evenly. It was an improvement in looks. I didn't notice any real change in tone. I used a chemical stripper and hand polished it to preserve the engravings. A small side benefit is repairs such as resoldering and dent removal don't show up as much. If the finish had been in decent shape I would not have done it. Polishing keys is a pain
 

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I asked my private lesson teacher about it. And he said that to relaq. a horn, they must take the old lacquer off. When they do that metal comes off to, making it so that it will not sound the same.
To each his own.
 

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Carbs said:
I asked my private lesson teacher about it. And he said that to relaq. a horn, they must take the old lacquer off. When they do that metal comes off to, making it so that it will not sound the same.
To each his own.
Somewhat true.

Lacquer can be removed with chemicals that don't remove any metal. It is the buffing that removes the metal.
Careful light buffing by hand will remove little metal but could take some time. It won't alter the horn much if any. However one can never be sure when getting a re-lacquer how many times it was done or how well it was done or how deeply it was buffed.
Thus a re-lacquer job done with care and an astute approach of its potential harms could be a wonderful way to preserve the look and life of an instrument. The problem being that there is no way of knowing how much care was applied once the horn has been redone.
I have a re-lacquered Buffet that sounds like a dark and resonant Buffet should. I think it sounds expressive, as it is free blowing and totally lacking in any stuffiness. I think the lacquer job stinks, and it has made the horn less valuable, however it doesn't seem to have hurt its playability any.

If a re-lacquer job is so detrimental then shouldn't excessive engraving do something to the tone also???
Engraving definitely removes metal much worse than a buff job.
So does a floral engraving make a horn play sweeter?
 

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Carbs said:
I asked my private lesson teacher about it. And he said that to relaq. a horn, they must take the old lacquer off. When they do that metal comes off to, making it so that it will not sound the same.
To each his own.
Maybe you should ask your tech instead of your teacher. :shock: Many a teacher is responsible for the spread of myth and urban legend. Just because he can play the thing doesn't necessarily mean he knows how they actually work.

De-lacquering should remove absolutely zero metal. Lacquer is removed by chemical stripping (whether it's metyylene chloride, muriatic acid or plain old boiling hot water) and Not buffing. Buffing and/or polishing is done only after the stripping phase is complete and can be done with a miniscule amount of metal being removed.
 

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This definately belongs to myth busters.

How much mystique has been proped up with this lac / no lac rumor.

I think it borders on religion, and isn't religion band from this forum for the safety of all involved???
 

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there is a lot of mysticism associated with many of the things this forum thrives on, so mainstream Saxology, shall we call this religion this way, has different cults within itself, the mouthpiece refacing (not refacing) persuasion, the laquer(non laquer) sect... and so on.

The Catholic church spent lots of time trying to determine the gender of angels....not much point in doing that really, especially because it is a matter of faith (in the existence of angels in the first place) but cannot be proved or disproved.

In the same way this kind of questions will be always answered, but beliving in this answers is, I am afraid, a matter of faith..)
 

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milandro said:
there is a lot of mysticism associated with many of the things this forum thrives on, so mainstream Saxology, shall we call this religion this way, has different cults within itself, the mouthpiece refacing (not refacing) persuasion, the laquer(non laquer) sect... and so on.

The Catholic church spent lots of time trying to determine the gender of angels....not much point in doing that really, especially because it is a matter of faith (in the existence of angels in the first place) but cannot be proved or disproved.

In the same way this kind of questions will be always answered, but beliving in this answers is, I am afraid, a matter of faith..)
I didn't know the part about the Angels.
That would take some pretty good myth busting to test out....
 

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:D :D

I just can't picture angels being saxual

Do you think they have found the perfect reed up there yet???

Or are they like clarinet players finding none that are perfect enough for them.
 
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