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Discussion Starter #1
By heating a pad cup till the glue melts and then clamping the pad cup, it is possible to give a deep seat to a pad.

However, if the tone hole is level and root problems have been taken care of, is it necessary to give a pad a seat?

Over the course of time as the instrument is played the pads naturally acquire a seat.

Should not this naturally acquired seat be deep eneogh?

It seems to me there are 3 ways a seat can be imparted other than through playing.

1) By clamping the pad cups for a period of time.

2) By the use of a pad iron and then clamping the pads for a period of time.

3) By heating the back of the cup till the glue melts and then clamping the pad cups shut for a period of time.

Presumably 3 gives the deepest seat of all hence the term deep seating.

I can see than if the tonehole is uneven and there is no possibility of levelling it, then presumably the deep seating method would help make the best of a less than perfect situation.

One disadvantage would be that deep seating leaves very little glue behind the pad for needle and micro torch work for those disposed to this method.

Please compare for me the advantages and disadvantages of deep seating over

-simply playing the instrument in

-clamping alone

-ironing the pad and clamping.

I understand that ironing the pad has the advantage of flattening it if it is not flat.

This is of course an operation that could be done while the pad is still on the work table.

I also understand that using the pad iron to install the pad has the possible disadvantage of compressing the pad in the area near the hidge rod so when using pad irons care must be taken in this regard.

I apologize again for over doing the questions last week.

This is my second and last thread for this week.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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IMHO, "deep seating" is a bad thing. One reason pads go bad is because they get too hard and can no longer absorb tiny (or sometimes more than tiny, depending on the pad, the tonehole, and the repairman's skill) imperfections and thus leaks are created. By squeezing the felt with a force that is stronger than the force of the players fingers, there is no longer any ability for the pad to absorb these imperfections under normal playing pressure.

My personal pad seating philosophy is flat, even, and as shallow a seat as possible. Many of my customers are professional players who play for many hours every day, and I see horns coming back for checkups or neck cork replacements after literally thousands of hours of hard playing with still very shallow seats (although they get a little deeper with time) and supple pads, and thus still good seals. The number one enemy of the longevity of my padwork at the moment is dirt/gunk vs. the pads themselves going bad or getting hard, which I think is a step in the right direction.
 

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Mouthpiece Refacer Extraordinaire and Forum Contri
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While there may be as much controversy around this subject as the actual importance of a parabolic bore, I'll simply share that I have had experiences where horns with light tonehole impressions (and showing no leaks with a leak light) have improved in their playability significantly when left clamped to create a slightly deeper impression. Perhaps it takes up some of the porosity or little micro leaks around the perimeter of the tonehole due to slight surface imperfections in the leather. Imperfections hiding in the shadows of multiply reflected light from the bore's heretical geometry.

I'll let others expound upon the dangers of what this does to felt life or leather life or the price of a loaf of bread - I find it makes horns play better if the practice is applied responsibly. This is of particular benefit to horns that do not have level toneholes, though I'd say that truing the tonehole is the first step so as not to half-*** the setup.

I do not feel that this should make up for wacky toneholes or shoddy padsmanship, though. It's the very last thing to be done before a final adjust and playing it to break things in, let things settle, recheck, adjust if necessary, etc.
 

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In my opinion there are no advantages to putting a deep seat in saxophone pads only disadvantages.

There is no such thing as a tonehole that can't be leveled using some technique.

Much more can be learned about seating pads by actually doing it than by discussing "how to do" it on the web.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I notice on the Yamaha 23 that the pads are very deep seated.

Given the fact that the Yamaha 23 has uneven toneholes, it is perhaps the case that soft pads are used because they contour more easily around uneven toneholes?

Is it not the case that deep seating creates a seat that is harder than the seat created by shallow seating as shallow seating leaves the felt under the leather more springy?

In other words, the pads are softer when they are deep seated, but the seat is harder.

Would the hard seat deep seating creates contribute to a less comfortable feel to the action?

Presumably the deap seated pad will last less long than a shallow seated pad as the leather in the seat will have a tendancy to dry and crack more easily.

Also, when the horn comes in for repairs would it not be the case that a deep seated pad hides more whatever leaks the pad may have?

A pad with deep seating looks more impressive than a pad with shallow seating but so what?

Is the above line in general a valid statement?
 

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Would the hard seat deep seating creates contribute to a less comfortable feel to the action?
I think it feels more solid, less spongy.

Presumably the deap seated pad will last less long than a shallow seated pad as the leather in the seat will have a tendancy to dry and crack more easily.
I don't see that happening.

Also, when the horn comes in for repairs would it not be the case that a deep seated pad hides more whatever leaks the pad may have?
You can see where the leaks are because the seat won't be as deep where the leaks are.

A pad with deep seating looks more impressive than a pad with shallow seating but so what?
So, it has more of an impression on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
In terms of the action of a horn, does the hard seat of a deep seated pad feel different from the feel of a shallow seated hard pad?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I presume the shallow seat of a hard pad feels better than the deep seat of a soft pad.

Also, Gordon was talking about how Yamaha pads have a tendancy to be too hard. I can only presume he meant they have a tendancy to dry out or that the fact that they are deep seated has something to do with the way they age quicker.

He seems to be referring to a negative kind of hardness, in contrast to the good hardness of hard pads such as the Precision Pads sold by Musicmedic.

As I understand it, it is not possible to deep seat a hard pad such as the Precision Pads nearly as much as it is possible to deep seat a soft pad.

Is there a difference in the depth of the seating of pads on the Yamaha 23 compared to the Yamaha 62 or other top of the line Yamaha horns?

How deep is the seating on Yanigisawa horn's? I ask the question because I sense that this company seems to care more about small refinements than most of the other companies.
 

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I presume the shallow seat of a hard pad feels better than the deep seat of a soft pad.
Do you play the saxophone?
I don't mean anything negative.
I am just wondering what you like?
I think different people like different things.


Kinda like jazz, there is more then one way to get the job done.
I know there are alot of monster players that use the incorrect fingerings.
 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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Helpful as always...

I would agree with you, Zagzig, that a shallow seat on a firm pad feels better than a deep seat on any pad. I use the Precision pads by Musicmedic.

{edit: for anyone puzzled by my response, Hornfixer edited his original response after my and jbt's post below.}
 

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I am beginning to realize that Hornfixer's comments and observations can be a useful compass for me on SOTW when it comes to saxophone repair. I know I am on the right track when .........................:D
 

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abadcliche said:
Helpful as always...

I would agree with you, Zagzig, that a shallow seat on a firm pad feels better than a deep seat on any pad. I use the Precision pads by Musicmedic.

{edit: for anyone puzzled by my response, Hornfixer edited his original response after my and jbt's post below.}
I think of these pads as pretty hard compared to, e.g., Ferrees pads. The black SG roopads are 'hard' pads. They take an almost invisible seat to get sealed and feel great in that condition.
 

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I totally agree with abadcliche & JBT.

"I notice on the Yamaha 23 that the pads are very deep seated. "
Not the ones I see. But they may be padded in a different place form the ones you see.

"Given the fact that the Yamaha 23 has uneven toneholes, it is perhaps the case that soft pads are used because they contour more easily around uneven toneholes?"

That is certainly the case for the very soft pads used on some really crappy horns, whose tone holes undulate up to 1 mm and more. But here, even very soft pads are not soft enough! Prime example is a Conn model - 20M? When discussing non-level tone holes, it is a matter of degree. Yamaha are not THAT bad. Otherwise Yamaha could not get away with using rather hard pads.

"Is it not the case that deep seating creates a seat that is harder than the seat created by shallow seating as shallow seating leaves the felt under the leather more springy?"

To me, the 'seat' refers to the indentation made where the tone hole contacts the pad. I really think you need to get away from worrying about the seating, and focus on the SEALING. THAT is what is important.

"Would the hard seat deep seating creates contribute to a less comfortable feel to the action? "

Players like a the feel of a distinct end of the travel to the tone hole. And they do not like having to add significant extra force to effect a seal AFTER that travel, especially if they are playing fast. This also affects the 'cleanness' of the change of sound from one note to another. This is what adjustment is all about. It is not about depth of seat.

"Presumably the deap seated pad will last less long than a shallow seated pad as the leather in the seat will have a tendency to dry and crack more easily. "

There will possibly be more of a tendency to hold water next to the pad by capillary action. The more wetting and drying that occurs, the harder pads become, and the more QUANTITY of water that dries around a tone hole during each wet-dry cycle, the more hard mineral deposits are deposited on and in the pad. (IMO)

"Also, when the horn comes in for repairs would it not be the case that a deep seated pad hides more whatever leaks the pad may have? "

I believe so. Picture an extremely deep seat. The light does not travel around corners, around the edge of the tone hole. Also,most really deep seats are on old style, very soft, porous pads, which have turned black from all their water exposure. Because they are black, even less light shows.

Hornfixer wrote "You can see where the leaks are because the seat won't be as deep where the leaks are."

I disagree. That may be true for really severe leaks, but leaks through gaps of only 0.01 -0.02 or mm are quite significant, and these are not visually apparent unless a leak light can highlight them.

"Also, Gordon was talking about how Yamaha pads have a tendency to be too hard. I can only presume he meant they have a tendency to dry out or that the fact that they are deep seated has something to do with the way they age quicker."

Again you misrepresent me, and I do not like it!

On the student Yamahas I see, the pads are hard. That is because they were made like that. They are also extremely long lasting, possibly because they do not absorb moisture. Possibly because they had a cling-film type of material beneath the leather. (Possibly they don't any more.)

"He seems to be referring to a negative kind of hardness, in contrast to the good hardness of hard pads such as the Precision Pads sold by Musicmedic. "

Hardness is counterproductive if there is sloppiness in linkages, or significantly non-level tone holes. Student Yamahas have sloppiness in linkages in the form of sloppy stack key pivot tubes. Tighten these up, and check the levelness of tone holes (necessary on almost every brand), and firm pads are just fine on an instrument with as much design rigidity as a student Yamaha.

"As I understand it, it is not possible to deep seat a hard pad such as the Precision Pads nearly as much as it is possible to deep seat a soft pad. "

Of course not. But again I say, forget about depth of seat, and focus on sealing.

"How deep is the seating on Yanagisawa horn's? I ask the question because I sense that this company seems to care more about small refinements than most of the other companies."

I don't go around measuring depth of seat. I notice it when it is extreme. Yanagisawa are VERY easy to work on and get pads to seal reliably, because of careful attention to the many relevant issues in design and manufacture. IMO.
 

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There is a huge advantage to using a deep seat. When you use a shallow seat, the horn will change as the player plays it. The finger pressure will deepen the seat and will throw the horn out of adjustment. I use a firm pad and the deepest seat possible. This way, the horn stays the same and isn't constantly changing as the player plays it.
 

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tdeane said:
There is a huge advantage to using a deep seat. When you use a shallow seat, the horn will change as the player plays it. The finger pressure will deepen the seat and will throw the horn out of adjustment. I use a firm pad and the deepest seat possible. This way, the horn stays the same and isn't constantly changing as the player plays it.
If an excessively deep seat is forced into the pads, won't the horn change as the player doesn't play it as well when the felt in the pads expands back to a more relaxed state?

My concept is light seats, and light finger pressure while playing which of course requires keeping the sax leak free so the player doesn't unconsciously grip the keys tighter to make the notes speak.

John
 

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If you seat a pad using pressure stronger than regular playing pressure IMHO I think that leaks that will show up under normal playing pressure can get overlooked, especially after a little time has passed and the felt springs back a little bit.

I was taught to seat pads very deep using clamps, but I started doing things differently after I got done apprenticing. Comparing horns that have come back in for checkups since having been repadded or overhauled using either method, the shallow seated pad are always in much better condition and have much much less leaks. Of course I could just be better now that I was as an apprentice, but I personally have had better longevity with shallow seats on firm pads.

FWIW, most of my repad or overhaul customers are at the professional or semi-professional level and are playing their horns quite a bit.
 

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My god. I'm moving to Vancouver. I didn't all those guys even came to Vancouver. Can I come into your shop and say hello to them?
Hans
 
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