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Well, the innovative Venova design was bound to sprout some followers and who else than Linsey Pollak should have done this?

And then the final question has to be how much? :twisted:

This is all the Venova isn’t . Interesting. Maybe Yamaha should reform its Venova according to this improvements?





well, this is for fun ( plays just as bad as the Venova!)
 

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It's always a joy to see what Linsey is up to. Take care of the spelling though - it's the cylisax no the clysax.

Listening to the latest versions like the Mk7 and the Mk8, I find the tone quite appealing. It's interesting that the shape of the side pipe is so important. Maybe the cylisax could be delivered with several side pipes to give the player the choice between different tonal concepts?

I do have the impression that Linsey puts in quite a bit of effort to get the intonation right while playing. Maybe some tonehole engineering (undercutting) could help?
 

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Thanks Vries1!

I’ve just asked an admin to change the title.

Who knows? My feeling is that this is a nice exercise but it will end up costing more than a Chinese soprano sax does overshooting the target.

While I think the flat sax has real potential (if cheap) could be easily made in 3D printed plastic

 

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I think this whole concept is very interesting: make a cylindrical bore single reed instrument overblow the octave by making it an "open at both ends" bore.

I would like to see someone do this with full Boehm keywork. Seems like you could start with an ordinary flute, experimenting with the head joint. Has anyone ever made a single-reed branched-tube flute headjoint?
 

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Or a modified clarinet barrel with a side pipe...

Well, I fear (apart from the ire of clarinetists) that the tone hole placement may need to be redone to get a decent tuning.
 

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I think this whole concept is very interesting: make a cylindrical bore single reed instrument overblow the octave by making it an "open at both ends" bore.
+1

But how does it work: A hole behind the vibrating reed should have the effect of a vent (or a leak). But here implements the principles of a pipe which is open at both sides. What's the accustic priciple behind that?

This is all the Venova isn’t . Interesting. Maybe Yamaha should reform its Venova according to this improvements?
+1

Linsay Pollack is a genius (and a amazing musician, too)!
 

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Or a modified clarinet barrel with a side pipe...

Well, I fear (apart from the ire of clarinetists) that the tone hole placement may need to be redone to get a decent tuning.
On a clarinet, the tone hole placement would have to be redone -but not on a flute, which is already an open/open cylinder.
 

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+1

But how does it work: A hole behind the vibrating reed should have the effect of a vent (or a leak). But here implements the principles of a pipe which is open at both sides. What's the accustic priciple behind that?
You can compare it to a (modern) flute, which is cylindrical and open at both ends
 

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You can compare it to a (modern) flute, which is cylindrical and open at both ends
Yes - but at a flute, the blowing hole is the upper end of the instrument and at the venova, the hole is behind the mouthpiece for some centimeters. Would a clarinet react like a sax if I would drill a simple hole in the barrel? No, it would sound like a disfunctional clarinet with a leak or a vent at a strange place. What's the acoustical function of the branch/the hopper?
I'm not arguing the effect (it works, it's innovative and - at least the cylisax sounds great and I would happily buy one if Linnsay would bring this on the market). But what's the reason that a hole behind the reed forces the air in a cylindrical shaped bore to oscilate like in a at both side open pipe?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yes - but at a flute, the blowing hole is the upper end of the instrument and at the venova, the hole is behind the mouthpiece for some centimeters. Would a clarinet react like a sax if I would drill a simple hole in the barrel? No, it would sound like a disfunctional clarinet with a leak or a vent at a strange place. What's the acoustical function of the branch/the hopper?
I'm not arguing the effect (it works, it's innovative and - at least the cylisax sounds great and I would happily buy one if Linnsay would bring this on the market). But what's the reason that a hole behind the reed forces the air in a cylindrical shaped bore to oscilate like in a at both side open pipe?
you may want to read this

https://www.conforg.fr/cfa2018/output_directory2/data/articles/000232.pdf

you will find there ALL the physics involved here

“.In the conical pipe of an actual musical instrument, a taper factor is small. It is difficult to realize the characteristic of a conical pipe with sufficient accuracy in high frequency with this basic theory since small taper factor means large value of .
In order to improve the degree of approximation of a conical pipe, the denominator and numerator of the first term are multiplied by a positive number smaller than 1

Therefore, it becomes possible to approximate the
acoustic characteristics of a conical pipe up to high
frequencies by using a thinner and shorter branch pipe
which cross-sectional area is and length is as
shown in Fig. 6.
The hole of the cross-sectional area is opened at the
part shown by the arrow in Fig. 6...."
 

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Thank you, milandro - that was very quick and should answer my question (if I'm able to understand it...)
 

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I’ve just read through the patent document, and my brain is hurting! It’s an amazing amount of paperwork to explain how something that looks simple and can be made from peeled carrots actually works, but in the end, will Bugs Bunny forego his lunch to use the carrot to produce an instrument that does nothing that existing instruments already do better? I doubt it...
 

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well, most of us use everyday implements which theoretical bases are very complex indeed even though their use is very simple.

The good thing about theory is that in many cases it is possible to predict something even before one empirically realized it.

Whether the world needs a cylisax or a venova, to carry on doing what it already did before all of this came to exist is doubtful but it is very possible that this would serve, one day, to be applied somewhere (maybe completely different).
 

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Yes - but at a flute, the blowing hole is the upper end of the instrument and at the venova, the hole is behind the mouthpiece for some centimeters. Would a clarinet react like a sax if I would drill a simple hole in the barrel? No, it would sound like a disfunctional clarinet with a leak or a vent at a strange place. What's the acoustical function of the branch/the hopper?
I'm not arguing the effect (it works, it's innovative and - at least the cylisax sounds great and I would happily buy one if Linnsay would bring this on the market). But what's the reason that a hole behind the reed forces the air in a cylindrical shaped bore to oscilate like in a at both side open pipe?
I think some of the confusion is coming from the fact that on the flute, the extra tubing that makes it behave like a cylinder open at both ends is in line with the main bore (that's the bit above the embouchure hole) and the part between the generator and the main tube is at right angles (that's the embouchure hole riser); whereas on the Venova and Cylisax, the part between the generator and the main tube is in line with the main tube, and the extra tubing that makes it behave like a cylinder open at both ends is at a right angle to the main tube.

But the effect is the same; the "branch tube" (in the case of the flute, that's the bit above the embouchure hole up to the cork, and on Venova/Cylisax that's the thing sticking out to the side) offers a place to form an antinode, so that the main bore now acts like a cylinder open at both ends, i.e., overblowing at 2X the fundamental frequency.

It would be very interesting indeed for someone to spend time developing these kinds of side branch instruments. When you consider that the last new wind instrument concept was the saxophone (conical bore with a reed at the end), everything out there's been developed for 150 years and more, whereas the side branch concept has only been made into instruments for a few years as far as I can tell.

It looks like these videos are aimed at showing a similar tone quality between the Cylisax and a soprano sxophone, but I would be interested in what kinds of different tone qualities could be achieved. (If you want a soprano sax sound, it's real easy to get an instrument.)

Who knows what if any future utility or artistic value could be found? It's still early days.
 

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Yes - but at a flute, the blowing hole is the upper end of the instrument and at the venova, the hole is behind the mouthpiece for some centimeters. Would a clarinet react like a sax if I would drill a simple hole in the barrel? No, it would sound like a disfunctional clarinet with a leak or a vent at a strange place. What's the acoustical function of the branch/the hopper?
I'm not arguing the effect (it works, it's innovative and - at least the cylisax sounds great and I would happily buy one if Linnsay would bring this on the market). But what's the reason that a hole behind the reed forces the air in a cylindrical shaped bore to oscilate like in a at both side open pipe?
On a flute, the blowing hole is both the open end and the excitation mechanism.
What you propose (a clarinet with a hole in the barrel) would be a cylinder with two open ends, but the acoustic coupling of the tube (the portion between the hole in the barrel and the first open hole) and the mouthpiece would be weak. With the Venova and the Cylisax, the mouthpiece is between the open ends and the coupling with the tube is stronger -even when the mouthpiece is not exactly at the geometric middle of the open ends, the ends play a quite symmetric role.
I even suspect that the bell on the branch pipe of the Cylisax is to improve the coupling.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
maybe a Ney with a side pipe?

:scratch:

 

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Thank you all for explaining the acoustical principles of my main instruments so patiently. I really learned something new.
This site helped me to understand the difference between different pipe types, too:
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/waves-sound/standing-waves/index.html#8.5

Now a question about the legal aspects: Do you think that yamaha is the only company that has the rights to develop and bring on the market such cylindrical saxes like the venova? Is this principle protected by the patent milandro quoted?

Linsay Pollak instruments sound so much better than the venova and it would be a pitty if this interesting instrument would sound all the time like the yamaha. On the other hand, yamaha's ingenieurs invented this kind of instrument, so ....
 

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Now a question about the legal aspects: Do you think that yamaha is the only company that has the rights to develop and bring on the market such cylindrical saxes like the venova? Is this principle protected by the patent milandro quoted?
One would have to research the patents on such instruments to define which aspects of the venova are protected. My guess is that any Yamaha patents are quite narrow - it's really hard for me to imagine that there would be zero prior art for using a side branch tube to make a cylindrical bore work as a cylinder open at both ends.
 
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