I have been making reasonable progress playing tenor sax but I do not mentally count beat. I prefer to concentrate on other aspests of playing. I do not think this is causing me too many problems as I still have a reasonable sense of rhythm but my teacher thinks I should be counting all the time. I have read the article on this site regarding this method of playing (ie not specifically counting) which really encouraged me to carry on as I have been doing. What do more experienced musicians do? Do you count or just feel where you are in the bar?
Counting the beat
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Joined
·
12,721 Posts
After many many many many years of playing I generally "feel" where I am in the bar these days. But for the first 20 years or so I counted everything all the time. This included learning percussion and violin to a professional level as well as sax. I am still actively counting as I play, but feel is an important aspect to rhythm too.
If you can't count it you can't play it.
If you can't count it you can't play it.
Joined
·
1,266 Posts
I suppose you can get away with that for a while, but sooner or later you will find yourself limited in what you can do unless you do learn to count a more considered way. Look at it this way. It can only help you to learn how to count correctly;certain settings and certain kinds of music will absolutely require it. When you are in a setting or playing the kind of music that permits a more "intuitive" approach, knowing how to count won't keep you from doing it "your way".
Regards, Ruth
Regards, Ruth
Joined
·
1,209 Posts
you have to not only count while you are playing but you also have to subdivide the beat in your head if you have a passage of anything other than quarter notes. start by always counting when you are resting. even if for a beat. know where the rest is and count it as soon as you start. like a dotted quarter note in 4/4 on the first beat. hold 1 and 1/2 beats then count 2,3,4 in your head. if you don't count how will you know when to come in or how long to hold a note? you can't always follow or you'll never lead. music as in life.you won't be able to sight read either.
start counting music you hear on the radio. listen to see if it's in 2/4, 4/4 ,3/4 etc and start counting.it will become second nature and you will also learn to groove with the rhythm section.
start counting music you hear on the radio. listen to see if it's in 2/4, 4/4 ,3/4 etc and start counting.it will become second nature and you will also learn to groove with the rhythm section.
Joined
·
337 Posts
Hi Mickyd you must get and use a metronome- and use it nearly all the time .start with it on clicking on 2 and 4 if you are jazz oriented.Mickyd said:
Joined
·
1,562 Posts
Practicing counting the beat while practicing your long tones (necessary.) shouldn't take to much away from focussing on other things. Plus, as a saxophonists you need to learn how to do multiple things (counting the beat, listening, sightreading, fingering, playing in tune, articulating....) all at once.
It's as good a place to start as any.
It's as good a place to start as any.
Joined
·
8,233 Posts
Your teacher should be in a good position to hear if you're keeping time or not. I'd try what he/she suggests first. Stamping on a given beat of each bar/measure is a good way to see if your feeling for time is good. In the old days it was common practice round my way for teachers to tap the pupil quite firmly on the head with a ruler to indicate the beat. It's a great shame that that can't happen any more but, hey, the world moves on! If you don't develop a steady sense of timing this can make it hard to play with others or with a playalong. Although you may feel you have "a reasonable sense of rhythm" you may still need work on keeping a steady sense of where the beat is. Good luck with it all.Mickyd said:
Joined
·
1,562 Posts
If you do this while playing in 7/8 you'll look crazy. (unless your time is off, then you'll look totally fine.)Carl H. said:
G
Guest
·THis is what I do. it's really cool once you practice it. 4/4 fits over two bars of 7/8. the second bar your coming down on the off beats. the back agin to on the beat in the third, by which time you have gone from left on the one to right on the one.littlemanbighorn said:
that was not a very clear explanation so look at this;
Joined
·
1,562 Posts
Psshhh .... yeah, that works but it's not tapping beats. And 4/4 doesn't fit over two bars of 7/8, 7/4 does.Dan Molloy said:THis is what I do. it's really cool once you practice it. 4/4 fits over two bars of 7/8. the second bar your coming down on the off beats. the back agin to on the beat in the third, by which time you have gone from left on the one to right on the one.
that was not a very clear explanation so look at this;
![]()
Plus you lose the great visual effect of looking like you've got a limp that switches legs every 3 steps.
I think I'll do some arrangements of tunes in 7/8 for marching bands.......
G
Guest
·thats right. it doesn't fit. posted in a hurry.littlemanbighorn said:
what I mean is that you can easily walk with more complaex time signatures like 7/8, 7/4 your on the offbeat in the second bar but the cycle completes itself.
you said that you would look crazy doing this unless your time was off. i was just demonstrating that i walk when i play. i may look crazy
, but my time isn't off.to the thread starter;
this method works really well to keep you in time and read in sigs like 7/8 and works even better in 4/4.
you should always count. for a long time it takes a lot of concious thought, but eventually it becomes second nature.
Joined
·
8,233 Posts
I find that committing to a nice heavy stamp instils confidence. The point is not for the teacher to know you know where the beat is. It's you who has to know and you have to feel absolutely sure. Walking or tapping your foot is not as good. Try it - it's great, especially with ballads (I am serious) or where the beat's not that clear. I really am serious on this one. And you don't have to stamp on every beat. That would be just plain silly. But like I said, if your teacher has their own way respect that first before you start stamping all over the place in your lesson or trotting up and down on the spot or indeed doing anything "homemade" we advised on this forum.Carl H. said:
Joined
·
12,721 Posts
Moving of the foot can be a problem if it becomes automatic. Players become focussed on their externalized pulse and exclude other stimuli - like conductors. It can be a serious issue and I never encourage it with students. I prefer to deal with counting in a more active manner which is less of a distraction to others. (Too involved to expand on here, but the basics involve counting everything by name.)
Joined
·
8,233 Posts
I agree with that. The stamping (or, indeed, foot-tapping) should never be automatic. I think maybe it appeals to me because it kind of replicates the occasional BOOM i hear in my head (!) that orientates me re the beat, especially when i need to be careful with my counting. I think it works well in among a range of other strategies. I've noticed that dancers who come to playing an instrument tend to be very good at feeling rhythm. Horse-riders too, funnily enough. But I certainly agree that there are various ways of working on timing that will lead to improvements.Carl H. said:
Joined
·
1,387 Posts
Micky, what I've found is that I could "get by" without counting and with just remembering where I was right up until I started playing in a slightly more pressured environment ie with a bunch of other musicians around me and a musical director fiddling about with the arrangement. Suddenly counting became very important because I had to know where I was very precisely and at all times, whether or not I was playing or waiting to come in. Now I try to remember to count all the time, just to get into the habit
moving your body with the music does nothing but make you "feel" the beat. so it is good to do it..not necessarily every beat..but if you watch really good small chamber groups(like saxophone quartets), they are moving CONSTANTLY when playing. it's because in that setting there are no drums or bass guitar and there are no conductors, so feeling the beat is of utmost importance...
ideally, you should never need to count. you should be able to internalize everything... of course that's VERY difficult, so you have to start off with counting. once you master that you'll be able to "feel" the beat(or measures or form)more and more as you grow musically. this process takes many years though. playing music well is no easy task, so don't give up on the counting if it's arduous at first.
you'll get better, i promise.
ideally, you should never need to count. you should be able to internalize everything... of course that's VERY difficult, so you have to start off with counting. once you master that you'll be able to "feel" the beat(or measures or form)more and more as you grow musically. this process takes many years though. playing music well is no easy task, so don't give up on the counting if it's arduous at first.
you'll get better, i promise.
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
