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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Folks,

I found a Super 20 at a local shop, they’ve had it sitting behind the counter for a few days while the owner decides on how much they would like for it. The serial range is 411,xxx which makes it about a 1965/66.

The body of the horn is in very good physical shape, the neck looks like it had a few minor dings etc. The pads are a hodge podge of originals and replacements and it definitely needs a complete repad. I played the horn, there wasn’t anything weird or annoying with the action but with the current pad situation it was hard to assess. I asked the shop to hold off on doing any work to the horn while I contemplate an offer over the week. I would probably put chocolate Roos on it with flat metal resonators.

Anyway, here are a few pics. I’m thinking about offering $1500 for it.

Thanks!

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If the shop owner sells this horn for anything near this price then the price of vintage horns has really reached the bottom!

A few years ago I bought for $1000 dollars a silver neck (which granted didn’t have these dents but this can be pretty easily be fixed by any good repairer) let alone buying a whole Cleveland Super 20! I sold one with brass neck , Eastlake 466xxx (pretty much the same series that I have got), for €2000 !

I would expect this to be worth more than you are offering and if you can buy for that much you should give the money and run quickly with the sax in your hands.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
They were talking in the $2k range on Friday. I’ll just offer $2k and see what happens.
 

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there is no harm in offering a low price ( $1500) but I wouldn’t expect them to take that offer.
 

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At $2k, assuming it needs an overhaul, you'll be into for $3k or so which would still probably be around $500+ lower than the horn would be worth if it were in 100% playing condition. IMO.
 

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They were talking in the $2k range on Friday. I’ll just offer $2k and see what happens.
$2k is good. Are they going to be doing the repay as well? If so, have you seen/played any of their previous work?

You need to consider the total price of the finished product.

Have you ever played a horn from this series? Are you happy with the ergos?

You could resell it at $2k, but people seldom recoup the price of the overhaul, unless they are able to do it themselves.
 

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I love this series, mine is an 460xxx Eastlake but in fact they are the same horn and I find it by far the most comfortable horn that I have ever played ( and I have had a few ).

I started noticing a flexion of prices around these parts too.

I have also recently tried a USA Silversonic which was just slightly heavier in action but every bit as good as mine. I could have got it at a very god price from the shop if I were at all in the market for a fancier looking horn than my regular Super 20.
 

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I sold my Super 20 to USA Horns about 10 yrs ago for $1200. It was a'63 and in good original condition and re padded. Great horn, just needed the money, and kept playing my Zephyr. I think your offer is a good one. Good luck!
 

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I like these early Eastlake S20's, too.

FWIW I have a Cleveland made on on sale on my website, quite fine shape, all set up to go....which I would be willing to discuss.

But I didn't reply to make a gratuitous plug. I agree with others here, a $1500 offer...you could try it, but unless the shop is either hard up for cash or run by a stupid person, I doubt it'll fly.
If someone offered me $1500 for what you describe...I would literally put on my Doc Martens and kick them out the door. But maybe that's just me ;)

You could try offering $1750-1800. That is actually NOT a disrespectful offer. It's low, but it doesn't say "I am trying to pull one over on you". Whereas $1500 sorta says that.

Best of luck. These are good horns. The only difference between the body specs of a late Cleve and early Eastlake is the neck. The Eastlake necks blow a bit brighter. Every other spec on the body is exactly the same as a late Cleve.
 

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I sold my Super 20 to USA Horns about 10 yrs ago for $1200. It was a'63 and in good original condition and re padded. Great horn, just needed the money, and kept playing my Zephyr. I think your offer is a good one. Good luck!
That horn today would bring in at least $4k in the open market, depending on physical condition. Ouch.
 

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I love this series, mine is an 460xxx Eastlake but in fact they are the same horn and I find it by far the most comfortable horn that I have ever played ( and I have had a few ).

I started noticing a flexion of prices around these parts too.

I have also recently tried a USA Silversonic which was just slightly heavier in action but every bit as good as mine. I could have got it at a very god price from the shop if I were at all in the market for a fancier looking horn than my regular Super 20.
I have two Cleveland S20's in the 422's - a Silversonic, and one with the silver neck only. Also my favorite serial number range. I specifically like the octave key treatment compared to the earlier models.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I called and offered $1500; lets see how they respond.

The ergos didn't seem to bother me. I'm not real versed in King's, is there something I should know about this series of the horn? I know it's not quite as desirable as the series 1,2, and 3. The one thing I'm not a fan of on the horn is the nickel key work as it reminds me of the Bundy II I learned on.

Regarding the re-pad. An old friend of mine is an expert tech, he can do it for about $550. I mentioned this to the local shop - they are usually really busy but have had an extremely slow last few weeks. He said unless has a ton of work walk through the door he will do it for $450 just to get the business. (It will probably a little more due to my pad/reso selection). The rods on the horn are straight and there isn't any slop in the action so I may just turn it into a project and do it at home with myself.
 

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I'm not real versed in King's, is there something I should know about this series of the horn? I know it's not quite as desirable as the series 1,2, and 3. The one thing I'm not a fan of on the horn is the nickel key work as it reminds me of the Bundy II I learned on.
No, and a lot of people prefer these over the earlier ones (playing-wise), and you nailed it with the "it's not as desirable" because of the aesthetics (nickel keys, no full pearls, possibly less engraving).
 

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I called and offered $1500; lets see how they respond.

The ergos didn't seem to bother me. I'm not real versed in King's, is there something I should know about this series of the horn? I know it's not quite as desirable as the series 1,2, and 3. The one thing I'm not a fan of on the horn is the nickel key work as it reminds me of the Bundy II I learned on.

Regarding the re-pad. An old friend of mine is an expert tech, he can do it for about $550. I mentioned this to the local shop - they are usually really busy but have had an extremely slow last few weeks. He said unless has a ton of work walk through the door he will do it for $450 just to get the business. (It will probably a little more due to my pad/reso selection). The rods on the horn are straight and there isn't any slop in the action so I may just turn it into a project and do it at home with myself.
A Super 20 in good fettle is worth getting done right. A leaky tenor is not a happy horn, and you need to get the timing right as well.

Unless you are in a true hurry - need vs want, I suggest you take the horn to your friend, and ask him to do the job when his workload is slack.
 

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that solid nickel silver key is unbendable, other parts of the horns have solid nickel-silver too and the horns stays in adjustment year after year.

As for prices being that good , I don’t know.

I just checked one of the most expensive shops in the NL and they have a ( granted, not very nice looking and brass neck) S20 in and around this series for only €1850 (they would probably take less) overhauled, which, for that shop, is an incredibly cheap horn.

The prices are definitely changing since one of the major shops here told me that they were considering getting rid of most of their Vintage American horns because lots of them are very slow sellers.

Local markets may be very different between themselves and what sells in one place for high proces may struggle somewhere else.

The careful buyer can make nowadays good money simply buying where things are cheap to sell them where they are (still) more expensive.

A shop that I know just send people to the US to buy a pallet load of horns. Few months ago for example there was a discussion on how in the states there were so very few SA 80 for sale while here they are relatively easy to find.

As for overhauls you can spend a lot of money on it but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it would be bad. Mine was overhauled over 5 or 6 years ago and I had white roos and oversized flat resonators in it.

The nickel silver rods and keys (they are not plated) are not so because this horn was cheap like student horns (which are plated) this is to create an impervious to bending moving parts( not unlike the Martin Magna another horn which should deserve better!). The keycups are brass though still they don’t bend easily and again after the overhaul my horns underwent a check up every two years and the shop (they didn’t do the overhaul) is still amazed at how very little work the horn needs.
 

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That's a very nice looking Super 20 and a killer price on it, even thought it's a later Cleveland without side pearls or double socket neck. Does it come with the Otto Link or is that yours? Should be a monster player once it's set up right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
That's a very nice looking Super 20 and a killer price on it, even thought it's a later Cleveland without side pearls or double socket neck. Does it come with the Otto Link or is that yours? Should be a monster player once it's set up right.
The STM Link #8 is mine... the horn comes w/ two mouth pieces but I didn't even look to see what they are.

Just found out that it's a one owner horn...
 

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The STM Link #8 is mine... the horn comes w/ two mouth pieces but I didn't even look to see what they are.

Just found out that it's a one owner horn...
... and what did they say about your offer of $1500???
 

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Wow I didn't notice it was a Cleveland actually, I thought that serial put it at Eastlake. That's a crazy good price for it and quite honestly...I revise my prior comment: if someone offered $1500 for it, I would actually invite them up to the roof and push them off. That IS sorta taking advantage of the situation, IMHO.

But we need not get into that digression....

....anyways.... I echo this:

A Super 20 in good fettle is worth getting done right. A leaky tenor is not a happy horn, and you need to get the timing right as well.

Unless you are in a true hurry - need vs want, I suggest you take the horn to your friend, and ask him to do the job when his workload is slack.
If a repad is THAT cheap in your area, then you should just have a tech you are familiar and comfortable with do the work. I mean, if you have repadded like a dozen horns before, then you could try a DIY....but, if not...just leave it in good hands.

Even at $2g and a $500 repad, you still have made a pretty darn good score there.
 

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The neck might be bent down, looks like a kink right above the tenon, so that's going to cost $250 to fix. The horn actually probably needs a full overhaul which should include the neck straightening. If you like these things, go for it, but if you're new to the Super 20, tread carefully.
My first tenor in 1961 was a used 1st-series S20 (wish I had it now to sell!) which I loved but traded in on a new MK VI in '63. A few years ago I decided to get another S20 after 50 years of playing Selmer. That was a mistake and I was able to break even on it. It just didn't feel right anymore and it had a fairly thin sound.
Regardless of the mixed pads, the sax should be easy to play and have a rich sound. If it doesn't, it still could be just a few leaks here and there. Kind of hard to advise but I guess if you can get a bargain on it and it doesn't work out for you, you should be able to get your money back by flipping it. If you get it for a good price and it ends up being your horn, then all's well.
 
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